COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Size of Elyria and keeping it safe
+2

So on the subject of the actual size of Elyria, the devs mentioned that to walk from one end of the map to the other unimpeded by mountains and such would take 48 hours which I'm assuming is real life time.

To put that in perspective, someone timed how long it would take to walk Skyrim and it took them 2 hours and 10 minutes.

Note that it took 2 hours and 10 minutes of taking what looked like the most direct route from one end to another so there was no sight of anything else off that path.

Now as a disclaimer I haven't played Skyrim before but watching the fast forwarded version of it really makes me wonder how difficult it would be to keep a tab on all that area to cover.

From what I hear a county is around 1-2 Skyrims big so if we wanted to walk from one end of a county to another it could take 2-4 hours if we're not stopped by anything along the way.

So really, how many players and NPC guards would it take to make that much land "safe". Not to mention that since there's digging and tunneling, how would you ensure safety from that?


UDL

7/4/2017 2:46:15 PM #16
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I think it might actually be that Duchies are the ones that are expected to be the size of Skyrim's map. Counties shouldn't be That difficult to manage. There Will be lawless areas though. If a Count is neglectful in his duties, he might find the borders of his County to be shrinking in time.


7/4/2017 3:05:56 PM #17
-1

Posted By grandad1982 at 03:57 AM - Mon Jul 03 2017

This makes me wonder if fortified coaching inns will be a thing. That would be pretty cool to travel a main trade route staying at inns along the way.

glad u mention it!

when i become count i have Plans to setup Way Stations along the Main Trade routes in my county. with each about 1 days travel from safe towns by even the most heavly laiden wagons...

this way even if u do get attacked on the way u can still make the safty of a walled Enclosure and Inn. will hire Staff to keep the place realtivly safe.

caravans will be charged a modest Fee to use the facilities to help keep them funded.

then just have some minor periodic patrols between the way stations.

regarding the rest of the County realy will be a combined effort with my mayors to do roving patrols around areas where people reside. the out of the way locations sadly would have to be on there own most the time but we will send people out to check on them from time to time.


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7/4/2017 3:06:17 PM #18
+0

Posted By MoonChaser at 4:28 PM - Tue Jul 04 2017

Posted By Logain at 2:48 PM - Tue Jul 04 2017

Posted By MoonChaser at 08:58 AM - Tue Jul 04 2017

(...)counties average 16km² with 405 people each (Yes, this is a different way to calculate it).

Sorry, but with all due respect that figure is highly unrealistic. 405 people per country would total in roughly 700000 OPC and NPC scripts running PER SERVER, creatures not included. Who's going to pay for that?

It is based on the numbers we've got for minimum size of settlements and settlements per county as by DJ section Aristocracy&Establishing Settlements and Sizes of Land and Settlements.
Per county an average of:

  • 0-40 hamlets or
  • 0-16 villages or
  • 0-9 towns or
  • 0-2 cities or
  • 0-1 capitals or
  • a combination thereof

where minimum population per settlements in order are stated as:
10, 25, 75, 150, 250.

(40 x 10 +
16 x 25 +
9 x 75 +
2 x 150 +
1 x 250 ) ÷ 5 = ~ 405

Guess since the capital exists but once per kingdom, one could ignore it here which would change the result to 444 instead.

Just saying what the numbers suggest.
OPCs will be payed for by the players - the more players, the easier to maintain the numbers.

The datas at the end of DJ#18 were for an average county, the DJ was stating that a county's population would be ranging from 750 for the largest ones to 100 for the smallest ones, so a county of average size would have around 400 pop.

But remember that the same DJ was also stating that the maximum of counties , would be 2000 and in that case they would all be small. Plus in the DJ you can read that counties of average size are linked to a random disposition of the continent where you have less than average number of counties.

With the new set numbers of domains, the total number of counties on the continent is going to be 1728, which is really close to the maximum of 2000, which also means that the counties are going to be closer to the smallest ones described in DJ#18, so it would make a lot more sens to consider population for a county to be closer to 100 than to 400, if proportions would stay the same as they were in DJ#18 it would mean an average population of 116 per county.

We also know that lots of things have changed when the set number of domain was decided, one of them being the uniformization of size, each of the 1728 counties is going to be close to 16 km², the only thing that will change is going to be the population per county. We also learned from the Q&As that the minimum population of a county has gone, now counties can be empty or close to it (only way to "free" population to have counties more populated than others)

There is a lot of unknown about maximum character population at world generation so lets not elaborate on that. What we know is that counties at world generation are going to be small (compared to the old scale) and as such they should host less population than before.

My guess would be between 0 and 300, with the most populated ones hosting only one large settlement and an average population for the average county to be around 120, enough for a town and two villages.

But that is only my guess, as we can not calculate any average population since we do not have the max population of the continent.


7/4/2017 4:35:40 PM #19
+2

Posted By markof at 7/4/2017 3:06:17 PM

[...]
The datas at the end of DJ#18 were for an average county, the DJ was stating that a county's population would be ranging from 750 for the largest ones to 100 for the smallest ones, so a county of average size would have around 400 pop.

But remember that the same DJ was also stating that the maximum of counties , would be 2000 and in that case they would all be small. Plus in the DJ you can read that counties of average size are linked to a random disposition of the continent where you have less than average number of counties.

With the new set numbers of domains, the total number of counties on the continent is going to be 1728, which is really close to the maximum of 2000, which also means that the counties are going to be closer to the smallest ones described in DJ#18, so it would make a lot more sens to consider population for a county to be closer to 100 than to 400, if proportions would stay the same as they were in DJ#18 it would mean an average population of 116 per county.

We also know that lots of things have changed when the set number of domain was decided, one of them being the uniformization of size, each of the 1728 counties is going to be close to 16 km², the only thing that will change is going to be the population per county. We also learned from the Q&As that the minimum population of a county has gone, now counties can be empty or close to it (only way to "free" population to have counties more populated than others)

There is a lot of unknown about maximum character population at world generation so lets not elaborate on that. What we know is that counties at world generation are going to be small (compared to the old scale) and as such they should host less population than before.

My guess would be between 0 and 300, with the most populated ones hosting only one large settlement and an average population for the average county to be around 120, enough for a town and two villages.

But that is only my guess, as we can not calculate any average population since we do not have the max population of the continent.

Actually I had to revise my numbers for population count. The DJ based population on a total amount of 200k characters.

Therefore the population estimate is back to 116 per county.

EDIT:

Old numbers on size

So the old outdated numbers for the population have been:

  • 8 counties per duchy -> 781 inhabitants per county (at 108km²)
  • 36 counties per duchy -> 174 inhabitants per county (at 24km²)
  • 64 counties per duchy -> 98 inhabitants per county (at 13.5km²)

Those were based on 200k characters, 4 kingdoms with an average of 8 duchies each.

Up-to-date numbers on size

By now this has changed to 200k characters, 4-6 kingdoms with 12 duchies each and duchies with ~ 24 counties each:

  • 24 counties per duchy ->174 inhabitants per county (at 24km²) (4 kingdoms per server)
  • 24 counties per duchy -> 116 inhabitants per county (at 16km²) (6 kingdoms per server)

With a world at 216km x 128km (which is the most recent figure we've got), the character density with 200k will initially be 7 characters/km² on average.

Then comparing to the Skyrim starting continent in terms of area only:

  • starting continent = ~722.5 times as big
  • 1 kingdom = ~120.4 - 180.6 times as big
  • 1 duchy = ~10 - 15.1 times as big
  • 1 county = ~0.41 - 0.62 times as big

So for now the best we can estimate a county to be in size is that it will not be 2 times as big as the Skyrim starting continent but about 50% of it instead. That is four times less and therefore easier to manage than initially thought of.

Also mayors and barons can support the local count if their relationship is healthy.


7/4/2017 5:31:18 PM #20
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Did they mention if that population was active PC players only or PC and NPC combined?


UDL

7/4/2017 5:46:54 PM #21
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Posted By Yoruninja808 at 7:31 PM - Tue Jul 04 2017

Did they mention if that population was active PC players only or PC and NPC combined?

Total population which includes NPCs and OPCs.
The exact numbers will be tuned during beta I'd assume.

Riding a horse

Unfortunately we don't know how much different running and going by mount is compared to walking.
If we'd assume protected streets without events happening you cannot run from and look at our world as a reference (which might be quite off because CoE is still a game that has to be balanced), one could assume a healthy horse to trot at 13km/h for several hours.

  • {US/EU} County at 16km² - if square area - the diagonal = ~5.657km
  • {APAC} County at 24km² - if square area - the diagonal = ~6.928km
  • {Skyrim} 38.265520km² - if square area - the diagonal = ~8.748km

Walking

Skyrim walked across within 2hours and 10 minutes would be:

  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km / 2.17h = ~ 4.03 km/h walking and is very realistic as a value

If the walking speed would be the same in CoE, counties of 5.657km and 6.928km diagonal would take

  • {US/EU} 1 hour and 24 minutes and
  • {APAC} 1 hour and 43 minutes respectively by walking.

Horse trot at 13 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~26 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~32 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~40 minutes

Horse moderate canterbury gallop at 16 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~21 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~26 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~33 minutes

Horse fast canterbury gallop at 27 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~12.6 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~15.4 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~19.4 minutes

Now I don't know if the mounts in CoE will have comparable speeds but this is all but theocrafting anyway.

A full gallop at 40 km/h and slightly higher can only be maintained for 1.6km - 3.2km.

But for theoretical comparison I'll list it too.
Horse gallop at 40 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~8.5 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~10.4 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~13.1 minutes

7/4/2017 7:26:36 PM #22
+0

After reading your expanded question, we are the safety - or the destruction. That is that. Aside from that, the devs stepping in as a last resort in some, but very few, circumstances. (From what they've mentioned in past live streams, etc.)


The Akashic Records

7/9/2017 4:52:48 AM #23
+1

So generally what I got was that the community believes it would be impractical to keep watch on the majority of the county but instead would just focus on the settlements and the immediate areas around he settlement.


UDL

7/9/2017 11:15:58 AM #24
+1

Posted By Yoruninja808 at 07:52 AM - Sun Jul 09 2017

So generally what I got was that the community believes it would be impractical to keep watch on the majority of the county but instead would just focus on the settlements and the immediate areas around he settlement.

Isn't that exactly like it is in real life ;)


7/9/2017 5:29:08 PM #25
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Horse trot at 13 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~26 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~32 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~40 minutes

Horse moderate canterbury gallop at 16 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~21 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~26 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~33 minutes

Horse fast canterbury gallop at 27 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~12.6 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~15.4 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~19.4 minutes

Now I don't know if the mounts in CoE will have comparable speeds but this is all but theocrafting anyway.

A full gallop at 40 km/h and slightly higher can only be maintained for 1.6km - 3.2km.

But for theoretical comparison I'll list it too.
Horse gallop at 40 km/h:

  • {US/EU} ~5.657km in ~8.5 minutes
  • {APAC} ~6.928km in ~10.4 minutes
  • {Skyrim} ~8.748km in ~13.1 minutes

The problem with that estimation is the length of a day in game, and trying to avoid killing your mount.

You will have to stop and rest it for a given length of time,

Yes it will be faster than walking, but not by much.

As an example we can use the Pony Express... they swapped horses pretty much every 10 miles, because riding that hard for longer would have killed the mount. Even the riders would swap out every 75-100 miles and generally were exhausted. Unlike games, riding IRL takes skill and stamina for any length of time.

IMHO, the real gain of being mounted is not speed so much as ending the trip not exhausted yourself, so galloping is stupid except in short bursts. Trotting for half a day mounted requires a good 6-9 hour rest for your mount. So it's not magic.

On the other end of the scale, it will take wagons a lot longer.... "blazed trails" took 6-7 times longer than walking on foot. Roads allowed for 1/2 walking speed in good weather on flat terrain. Sorry, can't find the exact numbers or where I read them... all this "wagon train stuff" is all from fuzzy memory.


7/9/2017 6:58:17 PM #26
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I plan to regularly lead training/patrol expeditions, and hire dedicated cartographers to keep track of everything.


7/9/2017 7:23:29 PM #27
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Corin like you said if you are a farmer or rancher 'near' town you may need some help. However I see a person in the woods (a survivalist perhaps or lone hunter) then perhaps they are a little more safe. For one, they don't have much to take and secondly the woods may not be safe even for the raiders, you will know the woods much better so you will know where the dangers are. The Devs did like a scavenger hunt looking for I think it was stone markers in between towns, all died but two. So the areas between towns are not the safest places to be.


"Count Eldric Blackmoore of The Haven, offering direct support for the Hunters, Explorers and Gathers of Elyria" the

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