Posted By Vucar at 12:34 AM - Sat Nov 09 2019

I barely looked at the "shiny" today beyond seeing the image. I don't know, I just keep hoping they'll drop something big on us soon and redeem a year that otherwise was very ... underwhelming.

Yeah, the storm didn't make it this year, especially if you aren't a land-owner. And I realize that Snipe's comments were outside the realm of what Marovec is talking about, there is a certain irony in SBS talking about efficiency while they keep missing all of their self-imposed deadlines.

I believe there are multiple things that contribute to this...

First of all (And I have been criticized for pointing this out before...), the SCOPE has changed. Remember ElyriaMUD? Now they are going to give us a full 3d environment with low resolution models/textures for alpha.

The old method of Software Development (I'm not a game dev but I am a software dev) is Waterfall. That's what I was taught in school.

During Waterfall, you do everything in stages. And you DO NOT go back to a previous stage until the current stage is complete. This is to prevent scope creep and requirement convolution. However, it does not allow for anything to be done in parallel and is extremely rigid.

Modern software development practices follow Agile, and more specifically, Scrum. You can literally go get a certificate as a Scrum Master and learn proper project management and product lifecycle then be productive in a modern office.

The thing most offices get wrong is they combine Scrum with Kanban. It makes sense in some use cases but is hard to do successfully.

Caspian comes from Microsoft where he has had extensive experience in enterprise software development. This is on a caliber different than typical game devs. Nothing negative towards game developers but typically game development is something you do out of passion. Most game developers are taken advantage of and paid less for this reason. They also have a very hard time incorporating modern software design practices due to the rigidity of the office & industry.

I do have a personal friend in the game development industry & I can see modern practices starting to take hold.

You can clearly see the scrum cycles in CoE's workflow from the outside. They state their goals & have a backlog internally that they are following. Given the additional funding and expansion of what the definition of "Done" is, CoE has every right AND an obligation to do what's BEST for the product, despite our feelings. I think this is what Snipehunter is alluding to.

Ok, heres my view on the situation. No white-knighting here.

Its almost 2020, assuming coding/design/setup of the pre-alpha/alpha clients started in 2017 we get in three years an in-development pre-alpha client that (looking at the state in a non-specific run, e.g the Dungeon Run) currently is capable of basic, early early, prototype/first iteration mechanics. In its current state its barely a third of what SBS has planned the game to be.

Sbs has made a claim, "A process that might take several months of total time to complete can be done in a third or a quarter of that time". When someone makes a claim like this, I always verify. This "process" has been in effect for afaik 3 years now, quoting caspians statements in previous pax showcases.

If they can half their total time (not even third/quartering like he said) of development, and it has been 3 years working on tasks and processes, we should have had more if not most of the pre-alpha (pre, alpha) assets and systems ready.

If it takes them 3 years to get a pre-alpha, which is the barebones client for many of the systems, which have to be bugfixed, tested, changed, iterated and added to throughout alpha proper and beta, its going to take much longer than we had expected.

Im not saying SBS is wrong, or a scam, I'm just saying we may not see light of alpha till 2021+ proper, and I doubt that snipes claims are true, because we should have had pre-alpha this year.

Its about time for a new official production update.

Posted By Kyleran at 11/12/2019 8:01:15 PM

Posted By Costanius at 11:37 AM - Tue Nov 12 2019

Its about time for a new official production update.

Probably won't come until next year.

Seems the focus remains completing SoE and getting the music sorted out while the resource is available.

I wonder where they are at present, still working on completing the .50 version I would imagine.

Production update is typically the State Of elyria which afaik happens only once or twice a year.

I expect, this next update to focus on and I mean FOCUS on the game progress. No lore, no "promotional store items" I want to know what the game I paid for is looking like.

So, for some context, and to somewhat highlight the frustration I am feeling overall...

WARNING! HARSH CRITICISM AHEAD

Over the course of two years, they have gone from advertising this:

Pre-Alpha Progress Update

To showing us this:

PrElyria Internal Playtest Footage

Now, I am about as informed as an outsider can get about this game, and their development approach, and the chain of events from two years ago to now. So, I get the situation. I get what they are trying to use the PrElyria client for. I get it, I really do.

However, to a layperson, that does not exactly showcase a ringing endorsement for progress. In fact, it looks like several steps backwards.

Keep in mind that Pre-Alpha Update from two years ago is the last "real" video update we have had on the game.

Sales vs. Transparency

Now, the recent KSV, which was a resounding success, speaks highly of their ability to sell their vision. Everything, from the actual Kickstarter videos, to dev blogs, to the pre-alpha video, to their continued statements regarding progress, have been a master-class on how to sell a game. Everything has been curated to give the impression the game is further along than it is.

Despite all that, "where the development of the game actually is"...well, who the heck knows at this point? They haven't exactly been...completely forthright (obviously, this is my opinion, I can't prove dishonest intent) in their timelines and progress so far.

Proof of...anything?

My frustration is, and has been for a while now, around the apparent disconnect between what they have shown, and implied, years ago in terms of where the game is supposedly at, and where the game supposedly is now - that being so incomplete they can't show or demonstrate one single functioning system (notice I did not say complete, I said functioning) that actually fulfills the promise of what CoE is supposed to be.

• Kingdom/domain management?
• Advanced/functioning NPC AI that is supposed to be able to fill every role in the game?
• In-depth and complex crafting (actually implemented, with a demonstrable life cycle, not a concept piece as shown here two-and-a-half years ago)?
• Advanced story engine?
• Deep dive into research, organizations, reputation/fame, cultural behavior, etc?
• Demonstration of cultural behavior in a tribal settlement?
• Functioning flora/fauna ecosystems?
• Realistic growth/harvest cycles?
• Etc, etc...

Nope.

However, after 3 years, they can give us an "updated" parkour demo...that looks less complete than what was shown in the Silver Run Mine Demo, and show a character walking around an incomplete dungeon, in a low-poly environment...so that's great, I guess.

We were told they were supposedly actively working on, and implementing, many of core functionality items (even some of the items I listed) in the pre-alpha client, as mentioned in this blog last year Adventure Completion: From Pre to Alpha, but as with so many things...all we ended up seeing was words. Granted, that was back when they actually did production updates. It is a bit interesting that things supposedly being wrapped for the testing client back then are still shown as shineys they are working on now...

Let's not be too hasty...

I know we are only 3 years in. I know these things take time. I know that a lot of work has (supposedly) been done on the back end, and it takes time to transition complex code to a functioning visual facsimile of action.

I get it.

However, at some point, one must recognize that what we were shown 2-3 years ago was not, in fact, representative of a whole. It was a curated sales pitch to build excitement, and I don't know that we have had one honest video regarding the game's actual overall state.

I, for one (ok, I know I am not the only one), would love to get an honest assessment of where the game actually is, and SOME indication that the grandiose claims SBS has made surrounding their ability to do what no MMO has ever managed to do are actually founded in reality, as opposed to simply being great sounding buzzwords in a blog.

Said with love - and both the highest hopes, and highest skepticism,

Finn

Posted By Marovec at 3:47 PM - Tue Nov 12 2019

So, for some context, and to somewhat highlight the frustration I am feeling overall...

WARNING! HARSH CRITICISM AHEAD

Over the course of two years, they have gone from advertising this:

Pre-Alpha Progress Update

To showing us this:

PrElyria Internal Playtest Footage

Now, I am about as informed as an outsider can get about this game, and their development approach, and the chain of events from two years ago to now. So, I get the situation. I get what they are trying to use the PrElyria client for. I get it, I really do.

However, to a layperson, that does not exactly showcase a ringing endorsement for progress. In fact, it looks like several steps backwards.

Keep in mind that Pre-Alpha Update from two years ago is the last "real" video update we have had on the game.

Sales vs. Transparency

Now, the recent KSV, which was a resounding success, speaks highly of their ability to sell their vision. Everything, from the actual Kickstarter videos, to dev blogs, to the pre-alpha video, to their continued statements regarding progress, have been a master-class on how to sell a game. Everything has been curated to give the impression the game is further along than it is.

Despite all that, "where the development of the game actually is"...well, who the heck knows at this point? They haven't exactly been...completely forthright (obviously, this is my opinion, I can't prove dishonest intent) in their timelines and progress so far.

Proof of...anything?

My frustration is, and has been for a while now, around the apparent disconnect between what they have shown, and implied, years ago in terms of where the game is supposedly at, and where the game supposedly is now - that being so incomplete they can't show or demonstrate one single functioning system (notice I did not say complete, I said functioning) that actually fulfills the promise of what CoE is supposed to be.

• Kingdom/domain management?
• Advanced/functioning NPC AI that is supposed to be able to fill every role in the game?
• In-depth and complex crafting (actually implemented, with a demonstrable life cycle, not a concept piece as shown here two-and-a-half years ago)?
• Advanced story engine?
• Deep dive into research, organizations, reputation/fame, cultural behavior, etc?
• Demonstration of cultural behavior in a tribal settlement?
• Functioning flora/fauna ecosystems?
• Realistic growth/harvest cycles?
• Etc, etc...

Nope.

However, after 2 years, they can give us an "updated" parkour demo...that looks less complete than what was shown in the Silver Run Mine Demo, and show a character walking around an incomplete dungeon, in a low-poly environment...so that's great, I guess.

We were told they were supposedly actively working on, and implementing, many of core functionality items (even some of the items I listed) in the pre-alpha client, as mentioned in this blog last year Adventure Completion: From Pre to Alpha, but as with so many things...all we ended up seeing was words. Granted, that was back when they actually did production updates. It is a bit interesting that things supposedly being wrapped for the testing client back then are still shown as shineys they are working on now...

Let's not be too hasty...

I know we are only 3 years in. I know these things take time. I know that a lot of work has (supposedly) been done on the back end, and it takes time to transition complex code to a functioning visual facsimile of action.

I get it.

However, at some point, one must recognize that what we were shown 2-3 years ago was not, in fact, representative of a whole. It was a curated sales pitch to build excitement, and I don't know that we have had one honest video regarding the game's actual overall state.

I, for one (ok, I know I am not the only one), would love to get an honest assessment of where the game actually is, and SOME indication that the grandiose claims SBS has made surrounding their ability to do what no MMO has ever managed to do are actually founded in reality, as opposed to simply being great sounding buzzwords in a blog.

Said with love - and both the highest hopes, and highest skepticism,

Finn

This is the most honest, least knighted reply. Kudos

Posted By Marovec at 11:47 PM - Tue Nov 12 2019

I admire the time and effort you take to voice your concerns, when I've been frustrated by development I tend to just leave the forums for a while.

Glad there's someone more passionate than me to keep SBS from falling in to a trap of 'yes men' forums where nothing they ever do isn't perfect and then wonder why their game fails.

I think it's easy for developers to dismiss posts like yours and just lap up the praise, and we know from past instances Caspian isn't too good at taking criticism so it must be hard for them to read these posts, and I don't envy Serp's position having to relay community criticism to Caspian, but no one makes a post like that if they don't care or have lost hope and are fucking the game off for another one.

I would ask why anyone would truly be surprised that the jousting demo and dungeon run were highly polished showcase pieces so early in the development process. While I would love to see pieces at that level of showtime ready being released there is a lot more to the world that's being created and they have mentioned the need to update the website before moving much further with their interaction with their community. That to me speaks to an understanding that there is a need to reset their baseline as to where they are, it also suggests that they are starting to get to a point where they feel they are almost to the point of truly being able to showcase some of the things we are asking for. There is no point in highlighting your skepticisms, any of us who have backed did it because we bought the sales pitch. There have been a few missed self imposed deadlines and SBS was hammered for them, not entirely without cause so they are of course reticent to say more than they must at this point.

Ultimately you need to decide whether you have confidence in their vision or not, the KSV suggests there is a strong core of support for the vision, and while I might be just as eager as any to have something deliverable in my hands we should all be clear that we are backers for the project and ultimately the timeline for the game at this point doesn't raise undue concern in me. Some level of anxiety yes, im a gamer after all.

"However, at some point, one must recognize that what we were shown 2-3 years ago was not, in fact, representative of a whole. It was a curated sales pitch to build excitement, and I don't know that we have had one honest video regarding the game's actual overall state."

There's plenty of legitimate frustration to be had, and you make some good points, but I'm honestly confused by people thinking that that early pre-alpha video showing mid-development cycle content (mid-res geometry and texture assets) in the Unreal engine was what "Elyria" looked like as a whole world at that time.

I always took all of that as I thought it was offered, as "look and feel" intention. But I can understand that people would be a lot more disappointed than I am -- today -- if they thought that was somehow a near-finished, existing and fully procedural game world. That was always about fund-raising.

As to the second point --- I have no problem believing that the current and prior videos of the low-poly client represent the current state of the game. You've seen the video. Are you saying that you think it's MORE advanced than that and they just aren't showing us? Then I think you've seen plenty of actual "state-of-the-game" videos.

Enough videos? No, and I want more, too. And there should have been more all along. Do I wish it were further in development? Of course I do. Am I actually surprised that we are where we are, given its funding and the scope of the systems? Not really.

I don't think I've ever encountered a team whose size and ambition and development approach (which I totally support) lent itself LESS well to satisfying the curiosity of others as it went. But that doesn't mean I don't think it will work.

I agree that only time will tell.

I also understand that not everyone who has backed the game will feel the same way about that "patience". But, IMO, a working version of the KoE client is the only reasonable intersection of development, systems and content that isn't going to be a distraction to the process, so I'm content to wait for that and judge accordingly.

Posted By Marovec at 3:47 PM - Tue Nov 12 2019

...

However, at some point, one must recognize that what we were shown 2-3 years ago was not, in fact, representative of a whole. It was a curated sales pitch to build excitement, and I don't know that we have had one honest video regarding the game's actual overall state.

...

It looks like you have gotten some good experience at distinguishing a curated sales pitch from an honest demonstration. That's actually more than most people in the world could correctly claim.

I'm somewhat mystified at people's desire for demonstrations of things like mature combat mechanics with game-quality graphics. To me, those are the easy parts, because they've been done successfully by nearly all MMOs. To me, the hard parts are the other things mentioned, those with global scope requiring previously unseen levels of integration across a large scope of time and space.

I see D&SS as a harbinger of what we can expect in those aspects of the game, and that expectation is for nothing playable for longer than most people expect. That's because procedural map generation appeared to actually use algorithms that are applicable to running the player-independent substrate of the game. I believe KoE will use a more advanced version of a player-independent substrate, but it won't need to be a launch-ready version. The launch version, to be entirely consistent with the announced vision, will need such a substrate that emerges (yes, the technical AI term) from the combined interaction of all the NPCs fulfilling their roles through their programming and scripting. This is an outrageously difficult undertaking that is in my opinion nearly impossible to churn out using the rules of deadline-driven project management.

To be sure, my definition of "playable" is probably not the same as most people's. Neither the Silver Run Mine demo nor the jousting demo were "playable" according to my definition, because they did not engage the most technologically aggressive aspects of the game. "Playable" means to me that the full scope of the world is engaged, from monarchs down to adventurers, with the ecological rules and NPC behavior functional. I don't necessarily regard Alpha testing as requiring a "playable" game using this definition, because it can be worthwhile to playtest portions of an incomplete game on a larger scale than "friends & family".