crafting pic scares me

If crafting is really a play style and not a side hobby of players then imagine doing this for hours a many time can you trace an ax and have fun? I know you stated that there are like 12 mini games but masters will focus in 1 or 2. Why couldn't we control the hammer and move metal? This should have as much effort put into it as combat. Anything less and it will just be like crafting in other games and my hope of playing just as a crafter and shopkeeper will be dashed.

10/16/2015 8:02:22 PM #1

The reason they dont have you actually moving the metal around is that it would be incredibly hard, if not impossible, to do in game. I have never seen a blacksmith simulator and I dont think I will.

10/16/2015 8:08:53 PM #2

I kinda have the same worry, though from what I understood is that there are several mini games involved in making something like a weapon and that this will be one of them. They also said something about a whak-a-mole kinda minigame. Perhaps in that one you need to hit the right place at the right time with your hammer.

10/16/2015 8:35:05 PM #3

Going to kill my wrist crafting in this game.
Its something that will have to be dialed in during beta. They say there will be a dozen or so mini game and hopefully we will be swapping between them enough to keep it interesting.

10/16/2015 8:45:23 PM #4

I would expect that you aren't solely tracing axes all day to craft and especially not to level. I could see that axe minigame being the culmination to hours of preparation. It's been stated that you can get experience in a few different ways: reading books, being taught/mentored, observing others, finding/buying rare texts or practice (which does not consume resources). So I can see, if you are studying to be a blacksmith, that as a novice you aren't even going to grab a piece of metal at the start. First, you will probably have a parent mentor you (if they are a smith) or perhaps your family might contract a scholar/teacher if they are wealthier, you might also go to a library and study texts on smithing, I can see there being a larger story at hand slowly being unraveled in order to create that ONE finely crafted axe. Don't forget, you also need to find access to a forge (especially if your family doesn't have a blacksmith already), fire resistant clothing & apparel, and the resources to craft. So you probably won't be tracing axes all day.

10/16/2015 9:14:27 PM #5

I will be worried until I get a step by step example and it sounds like it takes more skill than a Facebook app.

10/17/2015 5:38:31 AM #6

For reading books and learning that way, I don't want it to be a simple 'click book, done', or even a 'open book (book has several pages, but you don't have to read them) and done.'

I at least, want it so you have to flip through each page, and when you get to the last page you earn something. At least the point is, reading books shouldn't be a chore, or an obstacle in a players way of getting their next skill advancement.

Players should somehow be encouraged to read a book, and have some kind of gameplay restriction, baring them from skipping the pages of the book. Like a cooldown on flipping pages, or like I said, which should be the bare minimum done, flip each page individually until they reach the last page.

10/17/2015 6:03:23 AM #7

My honest opinion on the subject is, I feel underwhelmed, esspecialy since there are other games in development that have procured a more immersive gameplay experience when it comes to crafting.

I've referanced Kingdom Come: Deliverances crafting before, but take another example. The way they sharpen blades with a grindstone is, the player sits down on it, the grindstone turns, and the player grinds the blade against it, moving it in different directions. With no kind of UI, except for a small bar-like-indicator that keeps dipping left and right when the player does some kind of movement.

I'm unsure of what the bar means, but in that game, it's more about knowledge and skill, but knowledge before skill. A player couldn't expect to make a sword without first knowing how to, and that's where books should come in.

For example. In the image where there was an axe head, why not remove the timer, but allow the player to bang on the axehead in different angels and wherever on the head they wanted. Have no indication whether what they're doing is right or wrong, and probably using the same formulas you would have used anyways, apply those to the axe.

Maybe different aspects of the axehead could have been different, like its weight, it's thickness, sharpness exc. depending on the different things they did or didn't do in the smithing process. have those steps penalize players for not knowing what they're doing, producing a shat weapon is just as rewarding as producing a sharp weapon, because it's all about progress, and honing ones skill.

That's my take on the matter. Regardless of what happens, Chronicles, with it's current format beats just about every MMO to date but I can't speak for games that will come out within the same time frame, or some time after Chronicles.

For sure, when the kickstarter is released I want to see some kind of upgrade milestone for crafting. I understand if it's some kind of engine, or unrealistic expectation given the current resources available to the team, but if the money and resources were provided I think there's no reason why the devs couldn't make it 'More' immersive if they got more money than they expected.

10/17/2015 6:24:36 AM #8

Yep, those minigames might not be the best option.

You can't be jack of all trades, so you must find a niche specialization. Like longswords. You don't make too many axes, tools or anything else if you wanna be a master swordsmith, who specializes in longswords.

But the biggest problem is that you'll be stuck with the same minigame. Of course, at some point, you'll draw that line with your eyes closed, but it gets really boring. It all comes to a challenging/boring ratio. If it gets less challenging, or more boring, or both, very quick, then the minigame might not be the best option.

10/17/2015 7:19:05 AM #9

I'd rather see hidden ratios at work dependant on the players actions, on exactly how many times they strike the axe head, how many times they reheat and quench it, the actual item forged from the sheet, take form, completly by player action without the help of a UI.

That way, as the player makes the item it's always different in very tiny ways, the improvements are based on observation and figuring out what went wrong, maybe it was a step in the process of the weapon crafting. Maybe there was a technique they didn't pay close enough attention to in a smithing book they were reading.

That's my ideal image in my head for how the perfect crafting for smithing in an rpg. So far the game 'Revival' has shown me that, at least on paper, they have the best Alchemy out of any MMO to date, surpassing the alchemy of my praised 'Kingdom Come: Deliverance' by far.

10/17/2015 7:28:26 AM #10

But, I think if they've gone out to show us screenshots and information regarding the skills and crafting, it's already far into development and something the team have agreed on.

I do want to say however, the theorycrafting with the overall crafting, with how the world works is very spot on. I felt happy with a lot of the stuff I read, and even in the moment of reading the minigame part I was exited, because it's something modern mmo's haven't really focused or devoted a lot of power to (crafting).

Like I said, revisiting crafting to make it more immersive should definitely be a stretch goal past what they need to push out what they have so far. It's not uncommon for, if a game that gets a good amount of money, or more than what they need to put that money elsewhere in the game and improve elements, or add more elements to the game. However much the devs think it might cost them to get it to 'The Best' standards.

10/17/2015 9:26:43 AM #11

Actually Caspian confirmed on the Oct 12 Q & A in his answer to my question that yes you can be Jack of All trades.

There's no limit to the number of skills you can train. You're limited solely by the length of your life.

So you can have a variety of mini games. I'm sure that even in a specialization there will be several mini games to the making of a single item. What was pictures was one step. Tracing a pattern. I'm sure there is one for cutting, forging, heat treating and sharpening just to name a few possibilities.

10/17/2015 10:33:41 AM #12

@Sabbicat You need to consider every bit of info, to see the whole picture, not just the fact that yes, you can learn anything. To be really efficient at something, you must find a niche.

Many players will be blacksmiths, advancing in blacksmithing will be harder, proportional with the number of blacksmiths. But, even if you won't be able to increase your general skill fast enough, you can get better at making longswords. Of course, someone else might be able to make better axes, but no one will match your skill in forging longswords.

The same with combat. Everyone will rush to learn melee combat, one or two handed, making it harder to learn those skills, for everyone. But, if you choose to train throwing, more specifically javelin throwing, it'll be a lot easier to learn. And while others struggle with melee, you become master at throwing. Even if javelin won't be as efficient as the sword under normal circumstances, the skill advantage will make the difference in real combat.

So yea, to be efficient, you gotta make a few compromises, to ignore some important skills and focus on others that aren't too popular among other players.

At least that's how I see things, maybe I'm wrong.

10/17/2015 11:41:58 AM #13

"To be really efficient at something, you must find a niche."

This I agree with. However, for what we have seen that niche can cover more than one skill. For instance in the journal we were told about Swordsmiths, that is very much a niche. However, it covers multiple skills in order to complete. You need smithing, which seems to have two different minin games as a hammer 'whack-a-mole" style game is mentioned alongside the stencil, you need carperntry, and then other additions too to make it fancy!

I hope that people choose to make a particular finished article that allows them that bit more variety. So people need to be somewhat resposible for that too. You choose to just make blades, and you are likely to get bored. You choose to make swords... then I really hope (but I will have to see how it pans out) there will be enough variety in the processes needed to keep it interesting.

Author of the Elyria Echo the first, and least up-to-date, CoE fan site.

10/17/2015 2:07:35 PM #14

Ender you seemed to completely miss the gist of my reply. You stated that you can't be a jack of all trades. I pointed out that it is confirmed that you could. If you remember the second part of that quote...jack of all trades and master of none. If you are concerned about effectiveness and being elite in your trade then yes you need to specialize. Not all need to or want to do that. The fact that you specialize does not mean you will nrcessarily drone out with one type of mini game.

10/28/2015 5:31:23 AM #15

I posted this ON the blog itself but it seems to apply to what the OP is saying:

"Is crafting still up for debate? Doing a simple "cutting" the outline of a weapon sounds a bit simple. Maybe make it so you have to see the weapon in the forge reach a certain temperature by looking at the color (bashing a button to shoot more air into the fire and taking it out when it's at the right temperature), have it taken out and have you hammer at it (charge up hammer hits to make the shape of it faster and have higher quality and the goal is to make it before it gets too brittle). Add a balancing minigame for grinding as well. Make that one single weapon worth a lot cuz of the time it takes to make it."