i think the baked-in racism amongst the tribes will keep them distinct as most NPCs will only breed with other members of their tribe

at least that is what i took from the faction-like stance of most of the tribes toward each other

which is actually pretty cool because i would hate for sbs to waste man-hours (man-months) creating tribes and in 5 generations they are all mixed together to make tribes meaningless

players will be the ones to interbreed, but I think NPCs will do so rarely

Another consideration is that players will likely choose their tribe based on which one best supports their desired playstyle. They will want their heirs to also support this playstyle, so they will be more likely to have children in the tribe, or to mix with a tribe that gives them some advantage in that playstyle. Political boundaries will also be a factor. Most players will be likely to have children with others in their kingdom. Multiple tribes in a single kingdom will likely be more likely to blur together than those divided by a border. I think the characteristics and culture of tribes will shift over time, but distinctions will remain.

Posted By Roarer at

(b) having a counter force to keep diverging genetic combination, striking a balance between the 2 forces.

Food for thought : There's already something like that, it's the Wards of the State. Anyone starting as a Ward has essentially access to the whole genetic options, which means they'll be the ones keeping the genetics pure for those who seek it.

Food for thought : There's already something like that, it's the Wards of the State. Anyone starting as a Ward has essentially access to the whole genetic options, which means they'll be the ones keeping the genetics pure for those who seek it.

The bastard keeping the bloodlines pure, now there's a twist.

I may be wrong but wouldn't we expect a new set of children maybe once every 6 months or so? Based on character lifespans. So over the 10 year game span that's like 20 generations? Based on how the system Caspian mentioned in the DJ works I don't think we'd hit a point of too much blending before near the end of that, maybe 16 or so generations in.

Posted By BioRules at 05:43 AM - Sat Jun 03 2017

I may be wrong but wouldn't we expect a new set of children maybe once every 6 months or so? Based on character lifespans. So over the 10 year game span that's like 20 generations? Based on how the system Caspian mentioned in the DJ works I don't think we'd hit a point of too much blending before near the end of that, maybe 16 or so generations in.

The rate of blending right now is still completely in the hands of the devs.Quoted from the DJ there will be a small margin around each parent that allows players to pick genes which are "more like mom", or "more like dad", but not "directly in-between.". The larger the margin allow, the quicker blends in will happen, so the rate is not known yet.

However, no matter the rate, under the current system, this will always be a one way ticket to a single big tribe of Mann. The question would only be when. If we wish to allow the possibilities of reversing the convergence, a counter force has to exist.

A side effect of the current system is that the margin of change allowed between generations has to be strictly limited. With a counter force, even the margin of change is large, in game event can reverse the trend.

E.g. a plague strike the known world preventing everyone from moving around freely. The tribes identity will grow stronger and stronger until the plague is over.

Wouldn't that make CoE a more dynamic and interesting world?

For a 10 (real) year game plan we're looking at approximately 30+ generations of reproduction.

That's enough to have some fun & visible intermingling to see the creation of new 'tribes.' (Like Earth's Hispanic populations that are only 500 years old--yet a distinct ethnic identity.)

It's not enough to turn all of Elyria into the beautiful Mocha people who'll take over our world, look back, and wonder what all the fuss was about.

Expect for some "tribe purist" families to rise to prominence in this game.

5 years into the game: want to be a full blooded Hrothi? Now its an exclusive club.

Sounds interesting to me.

Posted By Roarer at

I have thought of 2 possible ways to counter balance the equation :

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(1) Make the effect on tribal attributes / skillset / metabolism stronger and stronger over the generations.

Same idea mentioned in my Q&A question. I would assume Hrothi or Brudvir to have stronger strength compare to the other tribes. Using them as an example, maybe their stat bonus to strength will grow from +5 (compared with Neran) to +15 over 5 generations. Apply the same idea to metabolism. As a result, even though they inter-breed with other tribes, the genes of Hrothi or Brudvir can still be observed after generations.

Moreover, there is an incentive for players to try keeping their blood pure.

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(2) Allow biome to change our genes when we live there.

The same logic used in lore to explain why there are different tribes in the first place. No matter what tribes you originate from, the longer you live in SALTWATER MANGROVES, you will become more and more like a Mydarri. As long as you are living in GRASSLANDS , you will be slowly turned into a Neran.

This idea will result in less diversity of Children of Mann. Everyone will be more or less having the same genetics of the original 12 tribes. No matter how they breed, the genetic combination would gravitate back to the original 12. This gives the most stability to bloodlines diversity but is kind of against the Pillar of Design : Dynamic. However, the devs can always fine tune the effect of biomes on genes to micro-manage the range of diversity.

Idea 1) I actually find that resistant to the principal of diversity--it's preserving the original 12 molds in their original form at the expense of seeing new morphologies taking root. Plus the 'pureblood' racial bonuses you suggest make things far more like "D&D" levels in a relentless mathematical environment that can't balance it.

Idea 2) This I do kind of like; it mimics the result of how things work in nature, if not the method. If I and my pasty-alelled town moved to Africa and only bred with each other, our progeny would still eventually 'evolve' into the racial traits of Africans--because those are the traits of best adaptation for the environment.

Still, even assuming your objective was tribal preservation, I'm not sure it's necessary. Environmental challenges will confront Elyrians the old fashioned way and the tribal advantages and disadvantages will be at work. Tribes will already enjoy being 'the fittest' in their native biome and have a jump on the competition of population biology in that environment.

The way I'd look at it is this... people from different tribes can do that, and it can happen over and over, with successive generations changing, and that can dilute what a tribe is (or was). But at the same time, that's a lot of cans.

Nothing is certain. Nothing is an absolute.

I think part of the fun of this game is when people look at it, a year or two in, and on 'x' server, one tribe is clearly changing from what it was... and on 'y' server, that same tribe has gone out of its way to stay 'pure', etc.

This is what CoE is all about. It's kind of a social experiment in some ways. That's far more fascinating, to me, than trying to make hard and fast rules to stop change from happening, when it's the potential for change that's the point.

And remember, potential doesn't mean something will happen. Only that it can.

You are assuming that even if there was no intermingling of tribes that the base 12 tribes we have now wont branch out further into a plethora of sub-tribes. While you are imagining the world turning into one huge homogeneous glob of sameness consider instead that time, and with it the divergences of culture as groups break up and go their separate ways (as is portrayed already with the history of the Proto-Neran splitting into four), combined with the convergences of differing cultures as groups migrate and merge with another, will not lead to ONE homogeneous group but a fracturing of dozens with all their own similar but distinct cultures.

I for one am looking forward to seeing this delightful formation of new cultures and peoples out of the old as they split and merge (and even split and/or merge again?) over the five in-game centuries.

Posted By Sharielane at 3:59 PM - Sat Jun 03 2017

You are assuming that even if there was no intermingling of tribes that the base 12 tribes we have now wont branch out further into a plethora of sub-tribes. While you are imagining the world turning into one huge homogeneous glob of sameness consider instead that time, and with it the divergences of culture as groups break up and go their separate ways (as is portrayed already with the history of the Proto-Neran splitting into four), combined with the convergences of differing cultures as groups migrate and merge with another, will not lead to ONE homogeneous group but a fracturing of dozens with all their own similar but distinct cultures.

I for one am looking forward to seeing this delightful formation of new cultures and peoples out of the old as they split and merge (and even split and/or merge again?) over the five in-game centuries.

I am making that assumption because SbS did not mention it in anywhere. Why do we need to assume anything? Even Caspian mentioned that issue in his original DJ#20, so I guess my assumption is rather reasonable.

But more importantly, if there is such a mechanics that a new tribe will be developed, how should it be implemented? And how can they remain as their own tribe without other tribes coming in and turning them all into hybrids after generations? The problem we have right now, is that there is only driving force to keep spreading thin the tribal attributes / identities.

Can't you see that with the given current information, there will be no way that a new tribe can be developed?

Aren't my suggested mechanics above providing the chance for new tribes to emerge? If one of my above suggestions is implemented, the following may happen e.g.

1) If The Waerd and Erishé have a baby, over generations, their line can survive more and more easily in any desert biome. (excluding polar desert of course)

2) By introducing a new biome, anyone living there would slowly be turned into a new tribe.

Posted By CerebralDaemon at 3:24 PM - Fri Jun 02 2017

Posted By Roarer at

(b) having a counter force to keep diverging genetic combination, striking a balance between the 2 forces.

Food for thought : There's already something like that, it's the Wards of the State. Anyone starting as a Ward has essentially access to the whole genetic options, which means they'll be the ones keeping the genetics pure for those who seek it.

What are the limits of this?

Edit: misunderstood.

-MX.

Keeping the line "pure" and restricting the gene pools is known to be a kinda retarded thing ;) One should rather include new gene material than to keep on marrying and making kids with cousins. I'd rather see the attributes go weaker or mutate if new genes are not received after a few generations.

Posted By BioRules at 10:43 PM - Fri Jun 02 2017

I may be wrong but wouldn't we expect a new set of children maybe once every 6 months or so? Based on character lifespans. So over the 10 year game span that's like 20 generations? Based on how the system Caspian mentioned in the DJ works I don't think we'd hit a point of too much blending before near the end of that, maybe 16 or so generations in.

I second this. My vote is for;

(a) slowly converge to the mean

I think even with tribal blending there will still be enough variation and in high enough numbers for many generations to come. Just think about the scale of the map for a second, to have more or less a single mongrel tribe prevalent throughout Elyria would take many many generations.

But as with most things the devs are in control. They could tweak NPC AI to ensure there will always be purebloods from each tribe.

I wonder if contracts can be written to include or exclude only purebloods? I know contracts can be tribe specific, but I don't know how they would handle cross-breeds.