There are ways deviants will be beneficial to the realm and the people, such as espionage and various specialists, like for example when needing to get inside a criminal hideout (lock picking) and disable its player made dungeon (traps etc.). It's like how it's with hackers, you got white caps, and you got black caps.

But even if you're trying to tone down the negative side of deviancy, your suggestions appear to still be pretty much on the more self-serving side of the deviancy coin if I'm not misunderstanding.

Not really trying to discourage you, but why would a Kingdom willingly want to invite conflict and weaken itself from the inside? There will be plenty of threats coming from neighboring kingdoms, including in the form of "white cap" deviants that work for their kingdom rather than against it - in fact, under the pretense of peace that will likely be the primary threat. So again, why would the kingdom want to put resources into dealing with an openly "black cap" deviant on top of that?

No, I doubt many feel a "for the story" is a proper answer, as building that kingdom through sweat and scarcity in the early game will be enough of a story for many. Personally I understand how it may please the Queen (which seems to be the story engine personified), but it's unlikely she'll be distinguishing between "white cap" and "black cap" deviants to begin with anyway, so the question of why you would desire to handicap your own kingdom remains. Would it really be so different working as a deviant against competing kingdoms as opposed to your own kingdom?

Some deviancy would be great. I was never opposed to it in any game. It's when you had no choice but to be good at fighting and travel in groups to avoid being killed is when it goes too far. I started playing MMO's with Ultima on line. I loved the game when it first started and you had to be careful wondering the hillsides in search of treasure but you were not being stalked and killed every other second. The first EQ was similar in that you knew it was dangerous to leave town but if you were careful you most likely would not be killed. In UO I finally quit when I could not ever leave the town by myself without getting ganked. It was no longer a fun game to play for me when that happened.

In my opinion a Duchy is too large of an area to be all deviant. Not because of the evil it would/could do but because I don't see how that large an area would thrive if every other duchy didn't like it around. But the Duke could be very tolerant of the behavior within his Duchy without officially supporting it. That might work but it might be a fine line to walk. I would think something more along a county or hamlet/town/village/city sized area. And if it was a nomad type of place that could just pack up and move when things got hot, even better.

^Ditto.

The whole point of deviancy is to work in the shadows. As a Duke your whole point is provide law and order and the protection and safety of those within your borders. If you wish to play the deviant yourself and be the corrupt Duke that turns a blind eye well you a free to play that choice, but your counts and/or fellows dukes in the kingdom is also free to play the game and use your corruption as an excuse to pursue booting you out. That's the game.

I have no issues with people pursuing to be deviant. Conflict is vital to the gameplay and they have their place and role to play in the world. In fact without the conflict they provide the game will turn stale pretty fast. But just as deviants have their place so do the non-deviants tasked with maintaining law and order. Don't expect other's to turn a blind eye to your shelter of them because pursuing them and hunting them down is their role in the game as the non-deviant.

Instead of pursuing this as a shadow duchy, personally I'd pursue this as a guild that operates in the shadows, with a network of safehouses dotted about in key places (such as secluded hamlets or front businesses/residences in registered settlements) that provide training and support for it's operatives. Whether or not local officials are in on it will be anonymous and totally at their own discretion.

How would you collect taxes for the king if everyone's stealing things all the time? If you have deviant tax collectors, or bandits robbing tax convoys from Counts to yourself, how will that work?

What would be your incentives to bring in traders from outside your duchy when it's famous for being a den of thieves?

How would you keep up strong political alliances with your neighbouring duchies and/or king when they're constantly dealing with deviant overflow seeping into their lands from yours?

a purly deviant society would not function. society is based on trust. and if you cannot trust anyone, there is no society.

I agree with basically what RedDoggybone said. Deviant play style can work fine. But a whole duchy? That's just insane and in my opinion, impossible to even manage. If the majority of the duchy was in that mindset.

Now if this was a town/county. Then sure I think you could run it fine. Small enough that you could strongarm the masses in line if people got too out of hand. While you could just put yourself on the border, to keep them from getting into too much trouble.

Would just be better going in with a trusted group, of really any size. Start trying to recruit really at any level if you don't always have the numbers on your side, yeah that will end badly.

Posted By Galliad at 09:54 AM - Wed Jan 03 2018

a purly deviant society would not function. society is based on trust. and if you cannot trust anyone, there is no society.

Generally true when you're talking about a "good" society. But an evil one would be held together by fear, or conquest, or cult of personality, etc.

Having said that, I think there's a far greater chance for something like this to succeed if it was done on a kingdom level, but as OP pointed out, this is risky. Given the sums people have spent, it's clearly not a risk [m]any are willing to take, but I do think it would add some very interesting diversity to the world.

The only way I see this working is if you are trying to form a some kind of criminal syndicate.

Those working for you would have to be loyal to you first as otherwise things can spiral out of control. You would also need a goal; a clear goal to drive individuals to work with you in order to attain said goal. It doesn't have to be super specific, but you should have a "field" in mind as well to act as a revenue stream. Is it warmongering, black market tradesmen, gambling, loan sharking (NPCs probably won't fall for this), banditry, black mercs (jobs NO ONE does), and the list goes on.

I wish you luck though as it sounds interesting, but once someone thinks you are a potential threat, then its over. Especially when you potentially control a significant fraction of the kingdom.

x

Posted By LukeSpyro at 06:41 AM - Thu Jan 04 2018

The only way I see this working is if you are trying to form a some kind of criminal syndicate.

Those working for you would have to be loyal to you first as otherwise things can spiral out of control. You would also need a goal; a clear goal to drive individuals to work with you in order to attain said goal. It doesn't have to be super specific, but you should have a "field" in mind as well to act as a revenue stream. Is it warmongering, black market tradesmen, gambling, loan sharking (NPCs probably won't fall for this), banditry, black mercs (jobs NO ONE does), and the list goes on.

I wish you luck though as it sounds interesting, but once someone thinks you are a potential threat, then its over. Especially when you potentially control a significant fraction of the kingdom.

So he would become the Blackwater of Elyria? Sounds interesting.

Hi Everyone that has posted so far. I will do my best to respond to the comments and questions at least once a day on this.

Posted By ShadowTani at 11:04 PM - Tue Jan 02 2018

But even if you're trying to tone down the negative side of deviancy, your suggestions appear to still be pretty much on the more self-serving side of the deviancy coin if I'm not misunderstanding.

Unfortunately being deviant is self-serving. You haven't misunderstood.

Posted By ShadowTani at 11:04 PM - Tue Jan 02 2018

Not really trying to discourage you, but why would a Kingdom willingly want to invite conflict and weaken itself from the inside? There will be plenty of threats coming from neighboring kingdoms, including in the form of "white cap" deviants that work for their kingdom rather than against it - in fact, under the pretense of peace that will likely be the primary threat. So again, why would the kingdom want to put resources into dealing with an openly "black cap" deviant on top of that?

They might try to just spread rumors about me, or close negotiations with me, or cut off my supplies, or other ways that do not deplete the Kingdoms resources. Maybe they could even decide to use me to infiltrate the other neighboring Kingdom. There is more than one way to play the game.

Posted By ShadowTani at 11:04 PM - Tue Jan 02 2018

No, I doubt many feel a "for the story" is a proper answer, as building that kingdom through sweat and scarcity in the early game will be enough of a story for many. Personally I understand how it may please the Queen (which seems to be the story engine personified), but it's unlikely she'll be distinguishing between "white cap" and "black cap" deviants to begin with anyway, so the question of why you would desire to handicap your own kingdom remains. Would it really be so different working as a deviant against competing kingdoms as opposed to your own kingdom?

I am uncertain if the Kingdom that I end up in will be handicapped. I can't predict that with all the information that has been provided as of yet.

I could work with the Kingdom, if they were too look the other way... regarding certain things. Would it really be so different if the Kingdom knew how to deal with a Deviant that is known vs a deviant that is unknown?

Posted By RedDoggybone at 01:54 AM - Wed Jan 03 2018

In my opinion a Duchy is too large of an area to be all deviant. Not because of the evil it would/could do but because I don't see how that large an area would thrive if every other duchy didn't like it around. But the Duke could be very tolerant of the behavior within his Duchy without officially supporting it. That might work but it might be a fine line to walk. I would think something more along a county or hamlet/town/village/city sized area. And if it was a nomad type of place that could just pack up and move when things got hot, even better.

A Duke could be very tolerant of what happens in the Duchy. I wish we had the Erishe, I would so start with them.

Posted By Sharielane at 02:34 AM - Wed Jan 03 2018

The whole point of deviancy is to work in the shadows. As a Duke your whole point is provide law and order and the protection and safety of those within your borders. If you wish to play the deviant yourself and be the corrupt Duke that turns a blind eye well you a free to play that choice, but your counts and/or fellows dukes in the kingdom is also free to play the game and use your corruption as an excuse to pursue booting you out. That's the game.

I love that scenario. So if we take that scenario and expand on it, then that means there will be at least 1 Duke + about 24 Counts + a bunch of mayors/barons, who all want to test the Deviancy mechanic, and see who comes out on top. That sounds like an active Duchy to me.

I have no issues with people pursuing to be deviant. Conflict is vital to the gameplay and they have their place and role to play in the world. In fact without the conflict they provide the game will turn stale pretty fast. But just as deviants have their place so do the non-deviants tasked with maintaining law and order. Don't expect other's to turn a blind eye to your shelter of them because pursuing them and hunting them down is their role in the game as the non-deviant.

Yes, that sounds like the game is working already. Expanding on this: The devient Duchy has created the need to increase the research in Criminology/Forensics. The increase in knowledge of the devient Duchy has caused other Elyrians to pursue a "quest" to stop the devient Duke before "x" happens.

Instead of pursuing this as a shadow duchy, personally I'd pursue this as a guild that operates in the shadows, with a network of safehouses dotted about in key places (such as secluded hamlets or front businesses/residences in registered settlements) that provide training and support for it's operatives. Whether or not local officials are in on it will be anonymous and totally at their own discretion.

That all can be expanded on through time, I can only speculate. And those are brilliant ideas as well, perhaps the Shadow Duke has already started this Shadow Network.

Posted By Steedsurge at 11:11 PM - Wed Jan 03 2018

I love that scenario. So if we take that scenario and expand on it, then that means there will be at least 1 Duke + about 24 Counts + a bunch of mayors/barons, who all want to test the Deviancy mechanic, and see who comes out on top. That sounds like an active Duchy to me.

That wasn't what was being said. They were saying that any count/mayor/gentry who didn't want to follow your deviancy will have the ability to kick you out of office or at least make it public. The NPCs by default will be against you and will try to find wrongdoing (or at least won't 'turn the other way'), which is going to be a majority of the population and they can mob against you as well. Investigations can be conducted and those who are ambitious WILL attempt to kick you out as soon as possible (so you don't have a foothold going in).

Posted By Mandos at 07:46 AM - Wed Jan 03 2018

How would you collect taxes for the king if everyone's stealing things all the time? If you have deviant tax collectors, or bandits robbing tax convoys from Counts to yourself, how will that work?

That is a very complex question. So if I pay off the counts to not steal money from me.... Or if the counts want to take a bigger cut since we are not paying the kingdom... IDK, I believe i could negotiate something into that, and make it work.

What would be your incentives to bring in traders from outside your duchy when it's famous for being a den of thieves?

Was it rumors of wealth & riches beyond belief, perhaps someone that can get you something... that perhaps belongs to someone else?

How would you keep up strong political alliances with your neighbouring duchies and/or king when they're constantly dealing with deviant overflow seeping into their lands from yours?

I don't know how fast the deviancy will spread, but it will be fun trying to figure out if the deviants in your home, came from SbS generated AI, or from the Shadow Duchy.

Maybe they can pay me to do it to some other neighbouring kingdom, We can set up a meeting to discuss in character. Maybe they realize they can use me for a political based deviant act?

Posted By Galliad at 07:54 AM - Wed Jan 03 2018

a purly deviant society would not function. society is based on trust. and if you cannot trust anyone, there is no society.

Do you trust the neighbours 3 blocks down the street from you? How about the ones 1 mile down the street from you?

I'm going to most likely be, hundreds of miles from the next Duchy. The map size is unknown, but the Elyrians who will live in my duchy will be well aware of where they live, and what happens in this specific duchy.

Posted By Gunnlang at 08:27 AM - Wed Jan 03 2018

Would just be better going in with a trusted group, of really any size. Start trying to recruit really at any level if you don't always have the numbers on your side, yeah that will end badly.

:) I love the foresight "yeah that will end badly". True words my friend... true words. But until it happens... I am up for the adventure.

Posted By Hieronymus at 12:44 PM - Wed Jan 03 2018

Posted By Galliad at 09:54 AM - Wed Jan 03 2018

a purly deviant society would not function. society is based on trust. and if you cannot trust anyone, there is no society.

Generally true when you're talking about a "good" society. But an evil one would be held together by fear, or conquest, or cult of personality, etc.

Having said that, I think there's a far greater chance for something like this to succeed if it was done on a kingdom level, but as OP pointed out, this is risky. Given the sums people have spent, it's clearly not a risk [m]any are willing to take, but I do think it would add some very interesting diversity to the world.

Every subscriber/backer was aware of the Deviancy Mechanic when they bought in to CoE (if they researched the game prior to paying large sums of money). I would say they open heartedly paid for that risk.

Posted By LukeSpyro at 2:41 PM - Wed Jan 03 2018

The only way I see this working is if you are trying to form a some kind of criminal syndicate.

The Shadow Syndicate.... has good flavor text to it. Thank you for that idea.

Those working for you would have to be loyal to you first as otherwise things can spiral out of control. You would also need a goal; a clear goal to drive individuals to work with you in order to attain said goal. It doesn't have to be super specific, but you should have a "field" in mind as well to act as a revenue stream. Is it warmongering, black market tradesmen, gambling, loan sharking (NPCs probably won't fall for this), banditry, black mercs (jobs NO ONE does), and the list goes on.

Yes, you are correct. Hence this post. Publicly addressing how to handle a Deviant Duchy. Looking for ideas, asking everyone their thoughts and opinions, and figuring out a way to play this into the game.

I wish you luck though as it sounds interesting, but once someone thinks you are a potential threat, then its over. Especially when you potentially control a significant fraction of the kingdom.

If I didn't control 1/12th of the map, then this wouldn't be an issue. But since I do.... here we are.

Posted By LukeSpyro at 8:26 PM - Wed Jan 03 2018

Posted By Steedsurge at 11:11 PM - Wed Jan 03 2018

I love that scenario. So if we take that scenario and expand on it, then that means there will be at least 1 Duke + about 24 Counts + a bunch of mayors/barons, who all want to test the Deviancy mechanic, and see who comes out on top. That sounds like an active Duchy to me.

That wasn't what was being said. They were saying that any count/mayor/gentry who didn't want to follow your deviancy will have the ability to kick you out of office or at least make it public. The NPCs by default will be against you and will try to find wrongdoing (or at least won't 'turn the other way'), which is going to be a majority of the population and they can mob against you as well. Investigations can be conducted and those who are ambitious WILL attempt to kick you out as soon as possible (so you don't have a foothold going in).

Understood. But not certain how the "NPC by default" will be against me, on day 1. The mechanics of how soon it will take the game system to procedurally implement the overthrowing of Shadow Duke is unknown at this time. I can't answer that with certainty. But I do look forward to finding out. Thank you for your feedback, it was insightful honestly.

Posted By EricShade at 2:51 PM - Wed Jan 03 2018

"No notice is taken of a little evil, but when it increases it strikes the eye." - Aristotle

As the others have said, if you make a fully deviant duchy it will not go well for you.

That being said, I encourage you to do so. Burning a heathen would delight my people.

All are welcomed in the Shadow Duchy.

To those that think being blatant about deviancy. Almost every person I have personally spoken to will use the deviant skills for either good or for bad. Also bad is a perspective thing. If a kingdom permits you using X thing against Y enemy. People just doing their job... It's only natural that there would be something some king or noble wants done that is sanctioned by the higher echelons of society. This game is going to be cut throat politics through and through.