COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Alternatives to battle system?
+11

I am really not a fan of this new battle system announced. I do understand that it is early days and nothing is set in stone but the proposed system has serious problems which many people have pointed out- makes battle tactics almost irrelevant, creates Zerg etc.

It’s great that SBS shares their ideas with us like this as it lets them gauge our reaction. Let’s try and be constructive. I think the current system is not all bad and with some changes could be great. Here are some ideas:

1.When a player dies their corpse should not simply get up again. This completely ruins battle lines and tactics. They should instead spawn at the largest concentration of their team at the ‘back’ (the side which has the lowest concentration of the enemy) this then feels more like reinforcements and maintains battle lines.

2.Remove bloodlust, It just doesn’t make sense. A general should never have to ask themselves“should I kill a large amount of the enemy at once or will that backfire”. The first engagement is meant to be tense and epic but with the bloodlust mechanic you are just waiting for the ‘real’ battle to begin.

3.Perhaps a life cap of say 3 would be preferable to the increasing timer mechanic. It would give each life the feeling of true value and create caution and potential for routs not to mention reduce boredom waiting for a timer. Spirit loss for each death. And on third death their corpse can be fully looted.

4.Create an officer system, so each unit of troops the general commands on his/her battle map is led by an officer. Troops of that unit receiving a buff for being within a certain radius of their officer. This would encourage units to stick together and run back to their unit after death. If an officer dies they could respawn to the highest concentration of their unit. If an officer loses 3 lives the unit can no longer get the buff.

5.Another alternative to the battle-timer is while players wait on the death timer they fight a battle in the Astral Plane against dead enemy players. Winning in the Astral Plane could provide a buff to main battle or just help pass the time.

Please share your ideas on how you would change the battle system. Thanks for reading👍


1/8/2019 5:56:26 PM #16
+0

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 12:57 AM - Tue Jan 08 2019

I feel like if the generals or officers want to fight an organized battle they should send messengers or emisaries and arrange something like pitched battles without a mechanic. Im sure the crew felt it needed some streamlining which could be the case.

Any real campaign will require a forward command post/encampment/or fort regardless of a pitched battles or not. And I think it should be up to a court or council on if you can legally attack or that the king will recognize your claim or outcome. It does not require pitched battles to do it.

If a kingdom attacks they wont be worrying about land rights. Likewise renegade duchies probably won care about land rights if they are making a power move on the kingdom.

I plan to run every other line would be pri/sec armed with the second line would just be armed with secondary weapons to equip themselves as well as use their own weapons against themselves. Giving them back their own weapons with less duribility sounds like a bonus. Eventually they will start breaking.

But even if you dont use lawful pitched battles if you keep the land for 28 days and hold it 28 you also legally own it then also. Squaters rights. Especially if you can stand your ground for 56 days.

You would have to keep the rightful owner from stepping foot on the land for the first 28 days in order for it to be considered abandoned. As long as they can touch the land, the clock resets.


1/8/2019 6:21:27 PM #17
+0

Posted By Ersatz at 6:56 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 12:57 AM - Tue Jan 08 2019

I feel like if the generals or officers want to fight an organized battle they should send messengers or emisaries and arrange something like pitched battles without a mechanic. Im sure the crew felt it needed some streamlining which could be the case.

Any real campaign will require a forward command post/encampment/or fort regardless of a pitched battles or not. And I think it should be up to a court or council on if you can legally attack or that the king will recognize your claim or outcome. It does not require pitched battles to do it.

If a kingdom attacks they wont be worrying about land rights. Likewise renegade duchies probably won care about land rights if they are making a power move on the kingdom.

I plan to run every other line would be pri/sec armed with the second line would just be armed with secondary weapons to equip themselves as well as use their own weapons against themselves. Giving them back their own weapons with less duribility sounds like a bonus. Eventually they will start breaking.

But even if you dont use lawful pitched battles if you keep the land for 28 days and hold it 28 you also legally own it then also. Squaters rights. Especially if you can stand your ground for 56 days.

You would have to keep the rightful owner from stepping foot on the land for the first 28 days in order for it to be considered abandoned. As long as they can touch the land, the clock resets.

how often do you think, a rightful owner can die before he permadies? ;) We are talking about nobility here... I wouldnt bother trying that as a noble person without an army. And maybe, its not just touching the land, but being near the seat of power. That could be quite hard to achieve.

Again, too many mechanics we know too little about.


Friend Code: 30EF47

1/9/2019 5:17:08 AM #18
+0

Posted By Gromschlog at 1:21 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

Posted By Ersatz at 6:56 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 12:57 AM - Tue Jan 08 2019

I feel like if the generals or officers want to fight an organized battle they should send messengers or emisaries and arrange something like pitched battles without a mechanic. Im sure the crew felt it needed some streamlining which could be the case.

Any real campaign will require a forward command post/encampment/or fort regardless of a pitched battles or not. And I think it should be up to a court or council on if you can legally attack or that the king will recognize your claim or outcome. It does not require pitched battles to do it.

If a kingdom attacks they wont be worrying about land rights. Likewise renegade duchies probably won care about land rights if they are making a power move on the kingdom.

I plan to run every other line would be pri/sec armed with the second line would just be armed with secondary weapons to equip themselves as well as use their own weapons against themselves. Giving them back their own weapons with less duribility sounds like a bonus. Eventually they will start breaking.

But even if you dont use lawful pitched battles if you keep the land for 28 days and hold it 28 you also legally own it then also. Squaters rights. Especially if you can stand your ground for 56 days.

You would have to keep the rightful owner from stepping foot on the land for the first 28 days in order for it to be considered abandoned. As long as they can touch the land, the clock resets.

how often do you think, a rightful owner can die before he permadies? ;) We are talking about nobility here... I wouldnt bother trying that as a noble person without an army. And maybe, its not just touching the land, but being near the seat of power. That could be quite hard to achieve.

Again, too many mechanics we know too little about.

Since this can be accomplished by family members, lieutenants, anyone he assigns it to... Roughly forever.

EDIT: Also, as long as he holds the title, his heirs still have claim.


1/9/2019 8:56:02 AM #19
+0

Posted By Orisoll at 6:55 PM - Mon Jan 07 2019

Posted By Wolfguarde at 01:23 AM - Mon Jan 07 2019

1: Their corpse doesn't simply get back up again. Not out of the same context as the rest of the world, anyhow, from what we've read so far. A person still has to spirit walk. Still has to find their body. And still has to deal with any penalties SbS chooses to attach to resurrection, along with possibly having had their weapon (at least) and armour looted, rendering them useless to combat until they can acquire another.

Maybe I misread, but that doesn't seem like it fixes the problem. The OP was talking about how, after you've spirit walked back to your corpse, you'll revive at that exact location. That would kill any semblance of a battle line and encourage corpse camping.

An idea to prevent this would be "first aid tents" on the battlefield. when dead you can decide if you want to be resurrected there (maybe even without spiritwalking) and get bloodlust or if you want to spirit walk to your corpse at that same position where you died without bloodlust and get the normal penalty. every pitched battle (with potentional bloodlust) will need a battle map anyway so the first first aid tent would be there. but as the battle proceeds your commander may add additional first aid tends at strategically valuable points. and they can be destroyed by the enemy as an adittional pitched battle mechanic.


1/9/2019 9:07:32 AM #20
+1

Posted By Bombastus at 07:09 AM - Tue Jan 08 2019

The CB mechanic prevents it. You can't capture a city without following the law of war, which means seeking official casus belli and staging official battles. Anything less is just a raid or a skirmish.

I am not really all that up to date on the staged battles or CB. But how much time (RL time) needs to pass before a staged battle can start then? If this takes too much explaining and there is some DJ where I can read up on all this. Linking that would be most helpful.

Just from how I'm reading it. Seems like either some group could attack from a different timezone and setup a staged battle vsing only NPC/OPCs. Or they would have to wait around a long time for the other side to get prepared.

I really thought it would be like TheCoz is saying. You get a legit CB against someone. Then just attack them. Who really cares about NPCs anyway. Last I heard they have no soul, so one death, they are gone. If you don't need them for that battle, while risk them?


1/9/2019 9:40:45 AM #21
+1

Posted By Valeska at 7:07 PM - Wed Jan 09 2019

If this takes too much explaining and there is some DJ where I can read up on all this. Linking that would be most helpful.

This is a DJ focusing on Incapacitation, Spirit Walking, and Permadeath

It will be hard to find information on pitched battles, if not impossible, as it has only recently stirred up a storm due to casual conversation with Caspian (the owner of SBS) in Discord. So a lot of what you are seeing is speculation and disagreement over the very few facts that we do know, which are that pitched battle involves a command table for strategy, and bloodlust to defend against excessive spirit loss.


If you are new to the community, the Design Journals will answer a lot of your questions.

1/11/2019 11:37:29 AM #22
+1

Posted By Bombastus at 3:39 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

I think you have valid concerns, certainly. But I think one of the best things about the proposed systems they are constructing is they build permeable barriers that guide the options a player is likely to take while leaving room for the extremists to risk it all. The legal system is designed to penalize certain behaviors, but never restrict them. The balancing point will have to be addressed by how easily the laws are enforced and how dire the consequences are for sidestepping them. I expect we'll see that in testing.

I can't really add much in response, nothing I disagree with here. I am curious to see how the metaphorical void (the take-and-burn-style players who will try to break the game post-Expo) will handle and in turn be handled by the game and its playerbase, though... whether these mechanics will be enough to roll them properly into the game without weakening its integrity and longevity. I'm confident SbS can manage it, but there's no guarantees. CoE's launch is going to be an interesting time for anyone with an interest in this genre, one way or another.


To touch Divinity, one must be prepared to brave Reality.

1/12/2019 5:26:56 PM #23
+0

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 9:57 PM - Mon Jan 07 2019

But even if you dont use lawful pitched battles if you keep the land for 28 days and hold it 28 you also legally own it then also. Squaters rights. Especially if you can stand your ground for 56 days.

Adverse possession requires the assent of the local count. If the count does not authorize your occupation it doesn't matter how long you squat.


1/12/2019 8:18:53 PM #24
+0

Aye in an inter-kingdom sense yes if you respect the chain of legal ways to obtain land lawfully in which case if nobody comes and you claim the land and nobody comes to take it it is still lawfully yours.

I think that kingdom expansions into other kingdoms should require adverse possession in order to annex the land by completely occupying them over having a kingdom army throw CB after CB when each kingdom probably does not respect each others territories in the first place.

CBs in that instance seems too easy. If conquering a county or dutchy is the aim it should be a long hard fought campaign with a decisive victory when people stop coming to fight.


                                      Anything worth having is worth fighting for                                       
1/12/2019 9:45:06 PM #25
+3

The benefits of pitched battles aside, according to the DJ:

"To claim a Noble Title, you have to have a Casus Belli."

That seems pretty unequivocal that there's no legitimate way to claim a title without a CB. It does not, however, predicate this on any form of battle or invasion. There isn't even any mention of pitched battles. So the actual method of executing CBs may just wind up being a matter of playstyle preference, player's ability to organize and their tolerance for spirit loss/spending money on sparks. But all you need to do is capture and hold the seat of power, regardless of how you actually do it - the hard way or the harder way.

Also, while it's certainly possible to kill everyone to become the de facto ruler without a CB, doing so offers no legal foundation for a claim and thus such individuals would simply be criminals in possession of a seat of power, at least until boundaries are redrawn or they gain a CB by Fame ... for killing enough people. \o/

Who wants to try this first? :D


2/12/2019 10:04:10 PM #26
-1

Bombastus is a Fish Eye'd Fool.

Army A invades Kingdom B

Army A meets Army B in pitched battle and wins

Army A then dispatches multiple Barons to attack multiple Settlments/Forts

Main army A advances towards the County seat

All those Army A Barons attack and capture a few forts,settlements and castles without entering into Pitched battle

Main Army A takes the County seat

They now control all the territory and the NEW Count says good job ppls. Kingdom B sues for Peace and aKingdom A to keeps the land they took.

Those small skirmishes illegal or not were carried out during a time of war...so Kingdom A will not tell all those Barons that they are bad ppl and Kingdom b will be mad buuuuut who cares? Cuz we won! lol

You cant seriously think that a skirmish during a time of war is going to be seen as illegal by the county perpetrating the skirmishes...and if they have a CB to be AT WAR in the first place then any act of war under that CB Umbrella is just more war...Kingdom A Barons can take and squat on any land they want in Kingdom b because Kingdom B wont get that land back unless they sue for piece OR take it back.

2/12/2019 10:35:17 PM #27
+1

I've been wondering about this very point for a while. Do monarchs start the game with enough fame (and thus the CB from fame) to attack at least one other kingdom? Once there's a KvK, then everything becomes fair game.


2/13/2019 1:38:14 PM #28
+0

I don't see why you would need a CB if you can hold the seat for the 28 days. Tbh that rules just seems like a restriction hurting the little guy as it prevents them from taking it through skill alone. I hope the CB is just an option by launch and not a requirement.


The Keshi family, is intend on bringing democracy and economic stability to Elyria.

2/13/2019 2:56:26 PM #29
-1

When waiting for battles to end in the spirit realm becomes the norm to simulate real battles. That might be the case if corpse camping becomes an issue. Just ask when the battle is over and then res. Its likely people will run away when the battle is being lost and the only people to stay will be looters. Im sure something can be worked out


The nicest pig in the world and a little cute.

2/13/2019 3:47:39 PM #30
+0

The rules say Adverse possession is not legally recognized but if you had the ability to take control then you will probably be able to convince the Count if not the Duke of your worth as a leader...Unless the person you crossed was BFFs with the Count or Duke lol...then you're just an idiot.

Log in to post