It had been touched on a few times, like in the dev blogs on identity or miscellaneous post over the years raising similar concerns.

While it is an option to have players take the law into their own hands (legally) in this game, there is also NPC's whose jobs are law enforcement as well, if that is you main concern.

However, one of the things you may have missed is that the game is intendes to give you the choice to break the laws- as you said a decent percentage of people like to play deviant paths or to just ignore rules that don't benifit their playstyle.

Its not expected that the King or Duke, or anyone else automatically know is someone broke the law or even who they are if the did like in most games. If someone does break the law, or the terms of a contract, it has to be brought to the attention of the athourities by a player or NPC who knows to set a bounty on the criminal to spread the news.

In fact the identity/disguise system makes it possible to commit a crime under a false identity to make capture more difficult if done well. This is also in part why ivestigation and forensics are a skill as well- the guards patrolling, investigatiors finding out the who to a crime, bounty hunter taking them in,- every bit of the law system is also part of the options of gameplay it's a two sided coin on that side of playing.

That's a great video, I watched it a while ago. We can only speculate on local law enforcement until playing the actual game, as to the wider theme of kingdom security I think of it as below.

It takes only a single guild highly focused on PvP to upset a server's balance. These players aren't necessarily skilled, they congregate together to overcome opponents by sheer volume of numbers.

The first question is, will the 'zerg' mentality prosper in CoE? If travelling between towns can take several hours, factor in the exhaustion and hunger mechanics, add in periods of camping and rest along the journey, it's already a different challenge to other MMORPGs.

Anyone who's played PvP appreciates the danger from 'over extending' into enemy territory, or stretching out your group during battle. It's going to add to the challenge in Elyria once you cross the border into enemy territory you will be hours away from home, exposed and vulnerable from all directions.

Given the vastness of the map, SBS could easily increase the challenge in travelling great distances to curb the expansionist ambitions of early kingdoms.

Logistics will likely come down to moving an organised army in the style of Roman legions, making steady progress into enemy regions. Or small bands of about a dozen riders(outlaws or declared enemies), each equipped with survival skills, abilities for tending to themselves along a journey. They will move fast and hit hard, these are the real danger to towns and baronies.

Will these bands break the game for all? Only if counties and dutchies have failed in recruiting PvP orientated players to be their trackers, rangers and defenders of the realm.

I totally understand your concern Viktorius, but I think many people like that aspect. The video you link is definitely a legitimate concern, but it's really up to other players to protect the flora and fauna. It will probably fall to the counts to ensure that renewable resources don't die out. We might see extinctions, but it makes the game more exciting than just the typical spawn of mobs. It could blow up in our faces, but SBS is doing something very different in world building and it's probably a big factor in why most of us are interested and invested in CoE.

As far as the laws, I agree with RainOfNight. It's just part of the game of "cops and robbers"

Posted By Viktoriusiii at

youtu.be/KFNxJVTJleE

You might already have considered this. But one of THE biggest fears I have for the game is the different approach to the world. The devs say so many things that sound great on paper, but seem to lack a certain realistic approach. While you say "players can enforce laws", from what I have gathered from other "player run" worlds is that sooner or later it requires either intervention or a complete restart/overhaul, because even if 3/4 of your players (insanely high estimate, generally its less then 1/2) play the game as intended, 1/4th will try to abuse it or find loopholes.

And if you think that kings and kingdoms can track everyone down you are naive.

If you know the game "Eco", then you might know what I'm talking about. And there, breaking player set laws isn't even an option and they STILL find ways.

I am not trying to hate on anyone. This is a legitimate concern of mine, which I do not see the devs acknowledging.

In the real world people break the law, and find ways to get away with it too.

Laws aren't in the game to not be broken, laws are there to provide interesting interactions, story and conflict, as well as attempt to maintain control and order.

What are you so worried about dude?

Somone kills you in game, you come to me and say it was that guy, I mount up and go kill that guy n take his stuff, or maybe i put a bounty on his head then fullfill the bounty annnnd kill him in an alley later.

Crime doesnt touch everyone irl or in game

Zergs will not prosper because a band of peasants cannot best a small Barony.

Make friends and allies in game, they will watch your back.

And dont rage when you are murdered or robbed, just go to your local Baron or whatever.

As a Baron myself i can say that I will love nothing more than getting revenge for ppl who cannot get it on their own.

Just imagine CoE as the wild west.

Laws will exist, communities of people will flock together for safety, banditry and train robbing shall occur.

Some bandits lived long infamous lives before the government shut them down or locked them up.

Dont expect complete lawlessness, but dont be surprised with pockets of it spread out everywhere.

Posted By Viktoriusiii at 11:57 PM - Wed Nov 28 2018

I know that the possibility of breaking laws is appealing to some. And that is the problem.

There is a theory/rule, that you always need to have about 95% law abiding citizens for the system to be stable. But games are not real-life. There is no possibility of RLdeath as a consequence of your actions. Therefore malicious actions will reward the player more than abiding by the rules (thrill of danger is often reward enough, that's why most teens do stupid stuff)

I think this simplifies the problem a bit too much. Don't get me wrong, criminal activity is one of the make or break points for the game and its reputation. but it's a bit more complicated.

First thing is the effort to reward ratio. To commit a crime, you need the motive, the opportunity and the capacity. The capacity part's what we're looking at. To steal something when nobody's looking is one thing; minimal necessary effort and preparation, easy reward. In most PvP games, opportunity is plentiful, as gatherers and PvPers are generally roaming the maps going about their business. Capacity is a non-factor, because it's either built into the game or it's on a toggle (flagging). You can just walk up and start hitting someone, and may the best geared/fastest reflexes win. In that order, usually, but I digress.

Capacity here's different. To murder somebody, you either need a weapon or a lot of time and the ability to corner them so they can't run. To corner them without getting spotted by guards, you'd need to have/get them somewhere secluded and difficult to see/hear. To get a weapon after exposition's sorted, you'll need currency. If your character's not skilled, it's entirely possible the other player might beat you, so you also need combat experience. If you're set upon by another civilian while you're fighting, you might lose unless you're wearing armour, so you'd need to shell out more still. To make the money for all the gear you need to grief, you'd need to spend time working, stealing, or adventuring. So on, so forth. Stealing said goods is also a possibility, but you face a similar logic pattern with acquiring the goods illegally.

What I'm getting at is that in order to do anything as a deviant that isn't petty crime and isn't massive risk for minimal reward, you need to spend time making yourself capable. That requires entrenching, grinding, and getting ready. And if you mess it up early on, you're back to square 1. Things are a lot milder in modern-day society than they were back in the feudal ages; thieves lost hands, adulterers were hanged (I believe), and in general the ruling lords were a lot harsher about punishment than was necessary. It was barbaric, but it worked, and I imagine you'll see a fair bit of that in CoE as well. When the risk far outweighs the reward, the proportion of stupid teenagers acting on said stupidity adjusts accordingly. You wind up with a lot less impulsive rule-breaking, and a lot more planned activity.

Which is then part of the game.

And as you have said: it is not intended to know every crime. But that will, in the end, drive the "harmless" players away. Examples are many in gaming history.

I feel like this will lead to disaster, requiring a restart and new methods of protecting the playerbase. But then, it might already be too late.

It may, there's no arguing that. But this issue began, and grew, because nobody in the MMO industry was doing what SbS is doing now; no developer gave us full agency in the resolution of bad player behaviour, and so those of us who were actually interacting with it on a day-to-day basis had next to nothing to do about it. Putting the buck mostly in our hands is the best thing they can do to combat griefing.

The only way anything's going to change is if other developers take up the trend and start allowing more player agency in keeping the gamescape clean of toxic behaviour. This might not be the optimal way to do it, but on paper, it looks good, and there's a lot of people who really, really want the chance to throw a spanner in the works for the griefers for a change, instead of having it happen to them.

I think one thing that people don't take into account is how many "game rules" players will have to deal with in addition to domain law. I'm not saying it will fully prevent players from creating zergs and playing the game to ruin others' experiences but it will most likely make their experience more difficult.

So let's say a group of players wanted to raid a settlement, they would need to factor in the following stipulations:
- Access to food & water on the journey as well as spoilage
- Weather and its effects on them, their animals, and their foods/resources (for all we know, different types of food spoils faster in hot humid weather, rain, etc).
- Travel Time/OPC and its relation to weather...if you were making a round trip (because, who wants to stay in a place you just pillaged) then 1-2 hour travel time isn't optimal, especially when you can't just log out in travel or when you get to the target location as you stay in-game.
- Animal Care, animals presumably have to rest, eat, drink and stay healthy. If you're solely traveling on foot, good luck with the next issue.
- Carry Limits, you have to make sure you have enough food and water to last for the entire group. Just imagine 20 loaves of bread or 20 hunks of meat in addition to armor, weapons, and other supplies - no one person can carry that so you might need carts.
- Gossip & Reputation

Lastly, player run government has distribution of power and someone is always someone's boss (whether they like it or not). So the King/Queen probably doesn't even know about this group, but that's not their job, they have their Dukes, the Dukes have their Barons (military outposts) & Counts, and the Counts have their Mayors. So if a settlement is being raided, a Mayor (or the player group in charge) would contact their Count, if they can't reach their Count, they'd contact a local Baron or their Duke who would also reach out to the local Barons. Maybe they, as a collective, figure out who this group is - kick them off the land they settled or even run a counter attack on their settlement if that's closer than the attacking force. Lastly, if players have a negative reputation through gossip and whatever - they also stand to lose a lot more future opportunities to join other locations. Guards might fight them at the gate, they may not be able to easily enter cities, etc.

I know this is a lot of "what ifs" and it's not perfect but, as the system currently stands, it doesn't make meaningless/reckless slaughter an easy thing to accomplish.

Forgive the double-posting, but it's better I break this up than post an even bigger wall of text.

Posted By Viktoriusiii at 02:15 AM - Thu Nov 29 2018

Things I could do before anyone might notice anything: Kill near all animals in a forest

You could... if you could actually:

• Find all of them
• Corner/hit all of them
• Beat all of them

The wild's not just going to be tame animals wandering predetermined patrol routes. They'll be adaptive, dynamic, and able to run, fight, call help, or do all of that and more, depending on their needs, nature, and state. A quiver might net you thirty animals if you're a crackshot with no margin for error... in a forest that's home to thousands. More likely, your kill total will number around 2-5. If they don't kill, trap, or consistently outrun and outmanouvre you and your weapon.

Rob everyone outside the city by just beeing prone to see if they are protected Steal/slay cattle

These two largely depend on how good the infrastructure in any given village/city/town is. You're more likely to get away with it outside a village than a town or city... for a while. Larger population hubs will be better defended. There will be archer guards in towers, mounted patrols, and infantry guards on the streets. This is all assuming you're geared enough to actually carry out a robbery to begin with, which is going to be unlikely if you're too armoured to keep up with your target, or they themselves are armed or have guards. You'd also need somewhere to stash your loot, which isn't exactly easy to do on the side of a road.

And of course, in the case of killing cattle, you might get one before the herd runs(/stampedes), and they're probably going to have at least some kind of memory mechanic regarding player identity.

Kill npcs and drag their body into unseen areas

See my previous post, and the previous paragraph of this one, for why this might be a problem.

I'm a rather creative person, and I'll be stepping into the shoes of the people who usually do this sort of thing during the alpha/beta stages of development. I plan on exploring every single possibility I can during that period to create data and work out solutions. What SbS doesn't solve with built-in mechanics, I'll be taking to my community with solutions we can enforce ourselves, and probably spreading knowledge of my findings to anyone else in the community doing the same. It's not just going to be the developers stopping the game from spiralling into a pit of madness and degeneracy. There's a lot of us in the current community who intend to take full advantage of the freedom of action we're being given in dealing with griefing, and we very much want the game to succeed.

Here's some other issues you didn't raise that are potential trouble points:

• Poisoning wells/cisterns
• Sabotaging structural beams in mines/buildings
• Releasing pests/parasites into wood, food, and other resource stockpiles
• Felling trees to block high-traffic roads
• Falling on people (literally going to a high place and jumping on them to deal damage/make them drop heavy/large things)
• Spooking cart/domestic animals in densely populated areas
• Icing roads, stairs, and slopes
• Unnecessarily barring doors (or leaning on them) to prevent passage
• Poisoning unattended animals with poor/toxic food
• Entering shops and breaking everything in sight
• Entering shops and dropping useless items/junk everywhere
• Cutting bucket lines on wells (or just stealing the rope)
• Sealing wells
• Sealing doors, windows, stairs and hallways
• Breaking windows in cold biomes (or in general)
• Tarring/painting buildings black during the night to increase their internal temperature
• Painting roads/buildings white to create light pollution
• Graffiti
• Cleaning out bounty boards/contract postings in a population hub (taking the contracts and dumping them)
• Stealing keys for tavern/inn rooms and throwing them into wells/other difficult-to-reach places
• The myriad deviant applications of strong glue (scabbards, helmet straps, bootlaces, doors, windows, levers, chairs, ropes, clothing, bedding, flints, saddles, tack, cutlery, mugs, kitchenware etc, etc...
• The myriad deviant applications of grease (Pretty much all of the above, plus stairs, hallways, pavement, slopes, and other high traffic areas)
• Releasing idle message birds
• Stealing and replicating contracts, reposting them with incorrect/innaccurate details
• Poisoning animal feed
• Scattering seeds and other small food items on roads and public areas to draw large quantities of birds and small animals
• Destroying fences (particularly farm fences)
• Planting weeds and other fast-growing plants in farmland/other places with valuable flora
• Dropping rocks from high places into densely packed town/city streets

So on, so forth.

And pretty much everything I've listed, we could either prevent or solve in collaboration with either the devs or the rest of the community. There's a thousand thousand ways to grief. Players have simply never been given the hotseat in the effort to counter those methods. I think a lot of us are looking forward to the challenge.

Posted By Viktoriusiii at 11:15 AM - Wed Nov 28 2018

Kill npcs and drag their body into unseen areas

I'm fairly certain it's been mentioned that you are not able to bind people to then drag them into a cell or move corpses of those slain

As much as I am excited to see this game become a reality, I can't bring myself to just accept proposed mechanics will survive a live game environment. Logistically I would never advise a group I am in to plan around potential problems based on things we are TOLD will be in game.

The best solution to this kind of situation is to actually try to break the game as soon as you have the chance to test it. Take one of your concerns (breaking the ecology) and as soon as you have access to that mechanic begin exploiting it extensively. Then when you report back here it will be with results from an actual game environment.

As counter productive as it sounds, to address your concerns you actually want people to take on the mantle of griefers and exploiters (at least a portion) in the testing phases. That way during fix stages the developers will know exactly how mechanics were circumvented and what might need to be tuned.

Many nobles are already planning for good resource stewardship -- and for enforcing that. That is actually a draw for many nobles to this game. Very few other games allow for that -- and none that I know of have a PvP element to resource stewardship.

Enforcement is an issue. But that is also historically true. Royal forests did not exist to starve peasants. They existed because the population was such that, if there were not royal preserves, deer and other game would be hunted to extinction. And yet you still got annoying outlaw poachers killing deer and tax collectors in Sherwood Forest.

All of these things people will need to work together in their various areas of expertise. People will sometimes do criminal activity. We will also need to figure out how to

A.) Prevent the crime. (That's usually not disarming citizens)

B.) Make sure the punishment is dueled out on the correct person with few innocents.

Just like in real life we all have the option to be a total ass. And just like that, in the game we will be able to punish said ass. Either punch him in the face. Or, if you can't handle it yourself contact your local authorities.

Nobility and aristocracy will have to work together in order for their rule of law to be enforced. We can't generally have people go unpunished for things you don't really want to be done.

Most of these fears aren't going to be realized. Honestly, people that do things without having something to gain by doing something wrong. Those things will likely not happen all that often. People that just randomly poison animals? What is there to gain? Why should a low life care that there are animals alive, or dead.

Assume people are rational within reason. People don't do things that don't promote their character or what they are doing. Think about what a criminal would want to do, and see if it can't be made hard to accomplish. If that crime has been done have the laws written to punish these people with the proper reaction.

If you where a criminal how would you accomplish X?

If you have an easy answer, then fix the problem. but if the answer is easy because there would be just people trying to do random things. Then, that problem would be rare as hell. People don't do things nihilistic just because. Sometimes they do, punish them accordingly.

The world is a very dangerous place. When you are pushed out of places and nothing to call your own, They will eventually learn that poisoning things and or random damage doesn't do anything particularly good for them. If it does, chances are someone is doing some type of shadow war to disparage the domain you reside if it's continual and often.