Would Brudvir & Janoa survive?

Do not take this too seriously, it is just a simplified, playstyle stereotyping little pondering. For fun:

Lets say most combat pvp oriented players choose to start as Brudvir or Janoa. (Neran too becose blah normiesdraws the biggest crowd, but those are going to get plenty of people focusing on other things too so they are not of interest here.)

If this combat based, bloodthirsty playerbase is as large as some claim/fear it to be, there will be very few dedicated gatherers, crafters, produsers and such among them. So here is what I was pondering:

How likely are these two tribes to starve to death?

Will they kill all wildlife in the prosess?

Will they just raid other tribes and survive that way?

Will there be so much combat within the tribes that only a few hardcore groups remain?

3/8/2019 10:11:38 AM #1

Good questions.

My impression is that they would apply more to Janoa than to Brudvir. That's because Brudvir have enough correlation with classic Nordic memes to attract a larger group of players than just PvPers. Wolf-lovers, arctic aficionados, wannabe pteroguin-hunters (or riders), woodworkers, and lumberjacks are among the diverse interests the Brudvir attract. Janoans do not have the advantage of a ready-made set of correlatable memes from popular culture. If their lore is filled out a bit more, the situation for them can become more balanced.

I don't think survival will be an issue for any tribe because, at a minimum, all the tribes will have filler NPCs to take care of the maintenance tasks that players who are most likely to be attracted to those tribes are unlikely to be attracted to. I call the purposes of these maintenance tasks "social and economic homeostasis," in reference to the recent popularity of the "H" term.

Nerans may be the go-to tribe for people who are interested in homeostatic tasks, but there will also be some such tasks that only a few Neran fans, if any, will be attracted to. Who, after all, wants to take up night-soil carrying or night watchman-ing as a PC career? Who wants to be the lord high bumwiper (literally, not figuratively) for the king? Who wants to be a sculler? These are all employment positions that particular social and economic conditions have required, and there are many more like them.

I think the reliance on NPCs as direct or indirect participants in combat will rule out raiding-only careers. Janoans in particular gain social status from hunting prowess. Hunting prowess requires more than just combat skills. I recall that Janoans are not considered fully adult until they kill a dangerous beast and wear its hide. Thus, a Janoan that was not a successful and highly skilled hunter would not have the prestige to put together a warband that was sufficient to raid neighbors with.

I am considering the unfeasibility of raiding-only careers, or at least raiding-only careers without a "tail" of non-hostile homeostatic support. Maybe I'll start a thread about it, when I've thought it through a bit more.

3/8/2019 10:21:51 AM #2

Definitely a very good question. From my experience in dozens of other MMO and RP games, I would say very likely. Polando makes some excellent points re the Brudvir, there is certainly more of a rpg focus among many of the dedicated Brudvir players that should leave them enough of a community to survive with. I think the pops of the tribes most popular with "hardcore" PvP players will die off very quickly, and then as the PvPers get bored and leave for the next MMO game, it will slowly pick back up again. Which is pretty much what happens in all of these games.

I think the way CoE is designed - from what we have been told/shown so far - will make it much more robust however, and it will correct over time.

The main factor will be how much they impact the builders, farmers and crafters and the hardcore rp community. Once they start to go, the core of the community dies, and often the game with it.

3/8/2019 11:00:59 AM #3

How likely are these two tribes to starve to death?

As there probably will still a lot of NPCs unclaimed, they will likely to do a job which more people need. In this case, they probably would focus on getting food to prevent this. But if there are other problems with the food gathering, less player could may mean that the situation maybe cannot resolved and in the starvation.


Will they kill all wildlife in the prosess?

Maybe, depends on the Nobility. The Nobility also needs to protect it's wild life. If they reacting fast enough, they can stop this from happend or atleast makes some damage controls. But if they don't act, this maybe could happend.


Will they just raid other tribes and survive that way?

They can try it. But both tribes are not that good outside their native biomes, so the defenders would have a natural advantage.

Will there be so much combat within the tribes that only a few hardcore groups remain?

The most groups will probaly not remain long, but I think this will have other reasons. If they want to fight 24/7, they still need to gather some money for that. They could go the deviant way - and will have to fight against way better equiped armies. They also could try to overthrow a county, but probably will have the same problems as in the first scenario: most groups (but not all) will overestimate themself and get beaten in the end. On a more better solution they could create show fights and similiar things, which can be run legally. So they can fight how much they want and don't need comes in the way of the Law.

3/8/2019 11:14:19 AM #4

It's all about supply/demand I think. If most Janoan's play PvP, there will be huge demands for food and crafted goods, while leaving an untapped supply of raw resources in their regions. Foreign traders could make their millions by supplying the Janoa. Local farmers and craftsmen could monopolise their markets from the lack of competition.

I don't see PvP as being the issue to be honest. It creates a high demand for new weapons, more food, and more goods. Everyone playing as a crafter or farmer needs a demand for their produce. Everyone playing as a bandit or knight needs a supply of produce.

There's a lot of money to be made in war...

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

3/8/2019 12:00:26 PM #5

Balance is the secret . I have being building my Duchy as Janoan only . I gathered many players so far and I can say that we are in balance. More or less half of them would love to craft , hunt , build ships, trade , farm and more the other half like to join the army and navy to raid, invade and mainly conquer out enemies lands . So as far I can see I am very happy.

The animal protection and fishery protection is one of my stronger project . I agree with you when you say is all up to the Noble to organise it. My Idea of a Zoo in my Duchy will protect many animal species from being destroyed .

We still can repopulate areas where some vandals killed off many animals. It is a long and hard project and I am sure I will need some help …… By the way …. It is the Noble duty to protect all life in his domain . All life I say so Mann and Animals.

Janoan Player will take care of their own biome I am sure . We are a predatory Tribe yes so get ready near our borders .

3/8/2019 5:00:33 PM #6

Interesting questions.

I do not think any tribe will die only due to player role choice, but i do expect it to have a significant effect, even more so on some of the tribes than on others.

Of those, unlike what Poldano says, but his arguments are good and valid, the brudvir will be the most and hardestly affected.

The brudvir biome is one of the hardest, poorest and most unforgiving, brudvir low population density, small settlements and remote position imply that it is one of the tribe heavily relying on initial role distribution. It is probably one of the tribe with the smallest free role margin.

Will that kill the brudvir? No, because some brudvir communities will manage to keep enough of the initial role distribution, but it will be the one losing the most settlements early.

The janoa do not suffer from the same problem, their biome is one of the richest and settlement existance should not be in danger, also janoan society is much more acustomed to sending away its fighters and as such those do not also act as non fighter roles.

Independently from the tribe, the smallest the settlement, the harshest the area, the more fragile it is and the more it will be affected by disruption of initial role distribution

3/8/2019 5:44:17 PM #7

While I think this is a very valid concern, I don't think it will be as extreme as you may think. Although there may be a huge pvp player base, there is and will be a huge player base for all other things. Supply and demand will simply dictate what players do. If everyone wants to go killing and nobody wants to breed cattle for food, the few who do farm can charge a pretty penny and make a killing. It will even itself out.

Some of the devs have said that it will be extremely difficult to kill off all the wildlife because: There will be conservation groups. If people tried to eradicate wildlife, starting from one side of the continent to the next, by the time they reach the other side, the side they started on would have repopulated. The continent is just too huge.

It is possible that they just go around raiding other tribes and surviving that way, but I don't think that would last long. The sheer amount of resources and time required would put them at a disadvantage. They would have to move everything which is very costly, or leave it behind.

Will there be so much combat within the tribes that only a few hardcore groups remain? I don't think so. This seems like too far of an extreme. New players will join, and some people will pick a character just based off looks. They might want the cool striping, or the diminutive cuteness.

You have to understand the community and what they want. Yes, there is a pvp community that may focus on the more physically impressive tribe, but they will have costs associated with that. To be an archer for instance doesn't necessarily require strength, but more dexterity. Maybe the long armed Dras will be a good fit for an archer. Not everyone will want to play a purely combat lifestyle. If someone wants to be strong in combat, but also able to make their own weapons, they will need the intelligence to do it, different races will learn at different paces.

I think your post implies that the Kypiq will be much less popular due to their size and lack of strength. The Kypiq are known to be tinkerers. Anyone planning to master certain crafts will be at an advantage choosing this race. Also they are a smaller target in combat, they can be more stealthy and maybe its easier for them to pick locks.

And let us not forget about the undiscovered tribes. Personally I aim to discover the Mydarri for their fondness for the water. If you were to assume a large population starts as a specific race for their strength.... well... When we find the Yoru I expect much of that population to flock to the giants.

I do think your concern is valid, but I'm not sure anyone would agree on which race is the best for pvp. I also think there is a huge community that will focus on building, crafting, learning, etc. Even the strongest soldier cant bring down a wall without the right equipment. They will need schools to teach them how to build the best siege weapons.

As mentioned previously, NPCs will also fill the gap. I wouldnt worry too much.

Edit: sorry if i missed your point on not having enough crafters or gatherers withing the tribes that are strong. I don't think this will be the case either because they have other advantages like tracking and biome specific knowlege that the entire player base would likely need to take advantage of.

FC: 13AB08

3/12/2019 2:58:05 AM #8

Your concerns seem to be from the viewpoint of someone who is not a PvP player.

PvP players in games such as Rust, Conan, Ark etc usually work much harder than PVE players because of the constant pressure of invasion and getting wiped.

Within those PvP communities are dedicated gatherers/suppliers etc. In fact, the PVE side of things is often considered a chore that everyone must contribute towards so that victory in PvP can be enjoyed. It's a very important aspect of those games and I don't see any reason why it will be any different in CoE. In fact PVE farmers etc are always highly valued within PvP clans.

At this stage I highly doubt there is even enough "hardcore" pvp players around to actually influence any of the tribe populations in the long term anyway.

This concern is completely invalid imo. I mean, not all Tribes will have the same populations, and they will fluctuate based on any meta that might spring up after launch. But I think the notion that a PvP focused tribe will starve because they don't farm anything is a bit ignorant.

3/12/2019 3:03:05 PM #9

I gave you a like because you right in your consideration . I have being a pvper in many games . The backbone of a successful group is having a balance . In Arkadia and mainly in my Duchy we got all that we need to be competitive . Pvp need a lot of Support . I am not hear to recruit anyone I am only say that your words wrong mate.

3/12/2019 4:27:41 PM #10

Posted By Fenrer

How likely are these two tribes to starve to death?

Will they kill all wildlife in the prosess?

Will they just raid other tribes and survive that way?

Will there be so much combat within the tribes that only a few hardcore groups remain?

Brudvir will be in a constant struggle against weather and food requirements, not just for themselves but for their animals. Janoa on the other hand have a jungle that receives a lot of sunlight in its location which proliferate fruiting trees, bushes with berries and all kinds of edible things.

There is lots of pressure on Brudvir leaders to be sustainable and following the roaming herds on the map. They aren't the type to kill all animals. They are more likely to tame and sustain them. With Janoa there is a cultural pressure to kill animals. Not just for religious reasons but for ornate and unique clothing. Birds of paradise might go extinct, tiger populations could fall drastically and large animals make for good trophies which helps them earn a title. I think some animals may go extinct in the jungle.

Both tribes will raid but they will probably raid their neighbours, not other Kingdoms. The strong will live. The best leaders will thrive. The weak will lose. The bad leaders will be forced out.

Brudvir respect their elite hunters but their central focus is sustainability. It's possible there will be a lot of combat people but they have a low population and they need people on food. Not all Brudvir will even be allowed. Janoa is very different, their Dukes and Monarchs don't even use guards. They invite people to try because at least it reveals "the best" in their race. With Janoa most will have some combat expertise and the hardcore communities will be groups of the best players. But all tiers and kinds of people are needed to make that happen.

"If we wait until we are ready, we'll be waiting for the rest of our lives..." code: CD83B4

3/12/2019 5:31:53 PM #11

I think both will rely heavily on the other members of their kingdoms -- and should do fine as a result. The H'rothi and Brudvir complement each other in many ways -- and that should be obvious enough to both groups that they support each other out of self-interest (aside from the lore reasons given).

The Janoa and To'resk seem less obviously complementary to me. (Well, they do have different skills and tasks -- but I am not sure that there is not some inherent tension in that, rather than a mutually supporting compensation.) That said, if To'resk are played based on the Lore (rather than as orcs), the Janoa should do fine, too.

Count of Frostale, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

3/12/2019 5:32:33 PM #12

Keep in mind, Caspian has said that settlements not well governed, or attacked to much, or subject to heavy economic warfare, or even getting hit with a natural disaster or plague, all of those and more will cause settlements to fail and disappear. So basically...if you don't want your Brudvir settlement to die off, the mayor better makes sure he has a good balance of food producers to fighters.

-The largest cause of war is selfishness. The hardest thing to achieve in life is mutual selflessness.

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