COMMUNITY - FORUMS - FAMILIES & NOBLE HOUSES
Children Contracts & LGBTQ Couples

PREFACE:

This conversation is created not to talk about any aspects of copulation but instead genetic combination. Please take this document seriously as I have worked diligently on this post to create a non “firestarter” based thread. I understand that in our current real life climate that there are concepts that some people may find vile and offensive. I want to present this feedback to Soulbound Studios and the community to create a conversation that is civil amongst us and not a shouting match over morality.

CHILDREN CONTRACTS FROM A LGBTQ VIEW:

I would bet 90 - 95% of the users will find this post silly. Though, if you ask around, I have found a few like-minded persons of the LGBTQ community & friends who ask the same questions as me. Why can’t the Children Contracts simply take genetics from both parents regardless of gender of the donors? Some, if not many, will answer along the line of thought that “This isn’t how the real world is. It takes a male and a female to make a child.” and while we understand this, there also becomes a question of being reminded in a fantasy game that we are different.

I can only speak from a male perspective but my observations over the years have lead to the following conclusion that many players will choose to create characters based on typically one of three routes.

Characters that are a hyper version of the player Characters that play out a fantasy (such as opposite of themselves) A combination of both.

This is shown as athletic or aggressive males playing hyper aggressive characters built around war OR a less physical person acting hyper aggressive to show a level of dominance that he may not have in real life but has always wanted. Fantasy may also lead cisgender heteronormative males to playing female characters. All of this is acceptable but if your a member of the LGBTQ community and you wish to play a LGBTQ character; you might find yourself stuck in a heteronormative reproduction because “it’s natural”.

Before you tune me out, please, read what I have to say and try to put yourself in our shoes.

Child creation is not tied to marriage but it is tied to binary gender creation. Most people think in a binary basic when it comes to gender. If a male marries a female, typically the concept of child reproduction (or contracts) in this case are simple. The two wish to build something together. Their children are a combination of the both of them. The may each provide half of the children’s genetic code and without any problem they have children. From the LGBTQ point of view is that if two people of the same gender wish to create a child, a barrier or rather a mechanic of the game has been built to stop them. Now, that wall may not be built to intentionally disallow same-sex couples from making children but out of a need for the game system to use xx and xy based on how the genes are being combined in the system. Intentional or not, what it does is remind our LGBTQ community that even in a fantasy game, we are still different… and that can create an emotional and disheartening scenario when we just want to feel mechanically the same in the game.

One may think that the solution is that two characters, regardless of gender appearance, could combine their genetic code into a child. The child’s gender could being randomly generated upon creation and while that seems reasonable their may be a more scientific explanation.

SCIENCE:

The world of Elyria has already shown evolution takes different steps and goes outside the confines of what appears “possible” in the real world. However, there could be more under the hood than meets the eye. Perhaps nature has made all Elyrians Intersexed or sequential hermaphroditism while having visable attritubes towards one gender or another. Perhaps all persons are capable of having children with anyone else. Perhaps we have more than simple XX and XY chromosome combinations.

The most common chromosomes in the animal kingdom on earth are based around an XX and XY combination. What the reader may not know is that we actually have many other combinations. Often times, in real life, these combinations lead to an inability to reproduce however evolution may have taken a different path on Elyria. To name a few, we have:

XX, XXX, XXXX, XXYY, XXY, XYY, and XY

...And even within those combinations their lie variations. XXXY syndrome, Aneuploidy, Tetrasomy X (aka 48,XXXX), Klinefelter syndrome (aka 47, XXY), XXYY syndrome, XYY syndrome.

In fact, based on some of the very concepts and physical manifestations of some of the tribal races in the game, one could theorise that these syndromes may be at the heart of some of the mutations to Mann. Beyond even the protein base of the Yoru, some might expect them to have XYY genes. The reason I bring this all up is that maybe Elyria has just as rich of a chromosome base as the real world but these differences didn’t evolve into negative effects such as sterilization but instead enhanced the creatures on the planet. This could be the very base of what lead all mammals on Elyria to be Intersexed. The plant life on Earth varies in its own reproductive way. Intersexed plants are common.

Even beyond that, in real life we also have sequential hermaphroditism. In these species, such as many species of coral reef fishes, sex change is a normal anatomical process. Clownfish, wrasses, moray eels, gobies and other fish species are known to change sex, including reproductive functions. [see Wikipedia] This could be a simple science explanation why two people of the same starting gender can have a child. Perhaps one of the characters changes sex for X amount of time if needed. Science!!!

PROPOSAL:

All life in Elyria carries more complex chromosomes such as xxy and so forth. Perhaps a majority if not all characters are technically intersexed or sequential hermaphroditism at this point but the way this has evolved on the planet makes it perfectly natural and without a detriment. This would allow two characters, regardless of male / female appearance, to contain the complex genetic codes for Child Contracts. Everyone can have children with anyone.

BENEFIT:

First, if we frame the scenario that two people who care about each other want to combine and have children that are literally from both partners, then we remove the “you are not really the father/mother” from the spouse of the parenting couple. It changes nothing to heteronormative earth tradition and simply places non hetero based couples into the exact same mechanic and responsibilities. Both partners would be the creator of the child.

While to some, this may seem ridiculous but let me ask you this... If it doesn’t affect you, why would you fight against making the system the same for others?

CONCLUSION:

I want to thank you for taking the time to read down this far. I know I expressed some ideas that seem odd to people and while I understand there may be some persons who wish to troll; this is a heartfelt message and plea to the creators of the game. I don’t go into a fantasy game to have “real life norms” thrown in my face while mages, vampires, and liches appear in the game and are accepted without question because “it’s fantasy” yet two people of the same gender is “too far!”. Please, if liches can exist, please let two men or women combine genes to make a child. Don’t make us take extra steps to find suragets and always have the dreaded “one of you isn’t really the father” scenario come up. It’s a fantasy game. I beg you, let us have this fantasy.

Thank you for your consideration,

Arieus

Count of Ironroot

The Kingdom of Bordweall


...
12/24/2017 12:42:25 AM #31

Posted By Liva at 7:15 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

What if the person you want a child with is of same sex, but got a talent (magical) or if the person is a lich, as you can have children with liches (when they're still young) or was it vampires? either way you'll create an offspring which we don't know what is yet.) But if you're not of opposite sex of the person with the talent then too bad?

If the other person has a talent or is a lich, their child will be a normal child. Soulbound has confirmed this. Talents are character-based, and are not passed down to the heirs.

If an LGBT couple wants a child, they sign a contract with a member of the opposite gender for a child and keep the child code. Mechanically speaking, there is no physical difference between a child you 'had' together and one you 'had' with another person.

12/24/2017 12:46:45 AM #32

When I think of the rules of child contracts, I think about conflict & narrative (dynamic story & personal narrative). For example, we assume that in a normal Elyrian year there's a good amount of children produced and a perfect equilibrium of 1:1 mann:womann ratio with which to produce these heirs. Well, what if a curve ball was thrown in, and in actuality, the ratio starts falling, less males are being created, the balance is upset, and the ratio becomes something like 1:4 - 1 mann for every 4 women. With a rule requiring 1 of each to produce an heir, there's conflict, the mere fact that a character is male & of an age to create child codes makes their value go up (at least until the ratio is solved in some way). This can shake up families, towns, threaten an entire kingdom, and Elyria in its entirety if the crisis is in every kingdom.

I would personally be all for a potion, talent, or item that allows the user to create contracts with whichever sex they want, heck it could even be a "cure" to the conflict I stated above. Maybe it could be an alchemical discovery that Kingdoms could ask their alchemists to research. Maybe that could be a direction you take in your personal narrative, exploring Elyria, following leads, practicing alchemy, to find a potion to help reach your goal of producing an heir with your spouse.

Lastly, I would just like to mention that I don't think there will only be LGBT players forming same sex marriage because 1) Players might not always have the choice of the gender they play as and 2) Have relationships that go deeper than just a character, I for one am hoping (best case scenario) that my female character has a wife (though I don't mind either way of what the player behind the character identifies as), because for one, it makes it far less awkward for me/my IRL fiance, and two, IMO it makes for a much more interesting experience. My wife would get to pick their surrogate and I will pick mine, or it can be the same person, etc.

TLDR So while I understand what you're saying Arieus, I just feel like everyone, as players & characters in a dynamic and ever changing Elyria, could be missing out on a lot of interesting experiences, encounters, and narratives by essentially removing the gender requirement in child-contracts but I think there could be the opportunity for in-game adjustments/workarounds like potions, a talent, or items.

12/24/2017 1:20:53 AM #33

First, I'd like to say thank you to everyone who has reviewed this thread. Thank you for taking the time to even consider what I was suggesting.

I am taking to heart all the feedback being presented and will attempt, in future posts, to make it clear that I am not speaking for the LGBTQ community at large nor am I attempting to provide examples that may be perceived as bigoted. I really thought hard about each sentence I wrote and apologize if anything I said came off as ill-intended.

Again, thank you everyone for the feedback.


12/24/2017 4:17:28 AM #34

Posted By Dustan at 10:54 AM - Sun Dec 24 2017

I agree child contracts between two males most certainly should be available and included. Why should LGBT players have to go shopping around for a player of the opposite gender to have children?

Hunt? Just do what most people will end up doing. Have the kid contracts with NPCs. Just from that alone, I really don't understand the problem here. Unless you plan to inbred the whole time. Two people get married, have kids. So you both take over those kids, plan to breed with each other again? To keep the line "pure"? thinks of harry potter and people screaming mudbloods at others

I'm trying to understand if I was gay, if I would care at all. But as others have pointed out, guys will end up playing females at some point. Females will play guys. Which I have not seen either side really care.

Plus it's only a contract, people seem to be blowing it up to make it more of a problem than it is. Or maybe I just really can't understand it. Not like you have to woe whoever, do some long questline to breed with them. It's a simple contract..


12/24/2017 12:02:16 PM #35

Hmm, I don't like disagreeing with my fellow LGBT people, especially since I know many don't want to deal with the same crap we have to go through in real life to get kids; but the bureaucratic conception should really not be used as an excuse to void reasonable biological explanations that obviously are only censored behind this system. So on this aspect I will pick immersion over convenience.

However, when it comes to gender swap potions it needs to be said that they aren't too magical for CoE. Shapeshifting within the same specie is technically much less magical than changing into an entirely different creature, such as a vampire or werewolf, which is within the limits of CoE. These potions would also be pretty cool for disguise purposes.

But it would still be a magical potion, and that would mean magical ingredients. Primary places that would allow for those are the rare magical mini-biomes that have been hinted at. So if such potions will be allowed I personally expect those to be so scarce and expensive that it wouldn't be a viable solution for most. And it's not like you want just one if you are two people each wanting a heir of a specific gender, not to mention bidding competition from the disguise professionals.

Me and my partner have a pretty solid plan anyway as we chose to see the opportunities within the limitations instead. Heterosexual couples will have to take into consideration the negative effects of incest for example, which means one of them will have to pick heirs from a different family each lifetime. We can instead pick from the same pool of heirs without that concern because we wouldn't be able to breed with each other anyway.

Beyond that, having both of us breed outside of the family will also, between the two of us, allow us to pick from a larger and more genetically diverse pool of heirs, with potential genetic features we would not had if we breed with only each other.

12/24/2017 12:42:10 PM #36

Posted By Dariusacmar at 7:45 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

Posted By promise at 12:41 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

Posted By Dariusacmar at 1:54 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

There will be people that feel so strongly against it/for it as to cause in game conflict. There will be people that will go on holy crusades/wars/personal assassination missions against such those that are LGBT. So just keep in mind...while you want a game option that is fantasy based...the players will still be from the real world and still be driven by their own selfish desires in almost all cases.

Same sex marriage is already allowed in CoE. To allow same sex couples to have children won’t cause a difference in whether or not they would be “persecuted” if they’re going to be persecuted for who they are anyway (in your version of Elyria). As well, being gay or lesbian or any other less common sexuality isn’t a choice... no one chooses to be attracted to men and/or to women— they just are. In this sense, persecuting LGBT people makes as much moral sense as persecuting someone based on their skin color.

I think that the OP’s intentions are good, but the way things are worded is very...coarse. There was no need to put players into boxes of what characters they want to play based on how “aggressive” they are, yeah. There was no need to speak on behalf of the entire LBGT community, sure. It’s true. But think of the idea itself; it isn’t a bad one.

In my mind we could think of the OP’s idea (same sex couples having babies) as something that’s not made to benefit certain groups and is not made to be political or divisive anything like that. What if we consider it like this:

No one in Elyria is having sex to make babies. Babies are born from contracts. In which case; why can’t same sex couples make babies too? Sounds quite valid in that context, doesn’t it?

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Those that don't give away their choices are free to make them according to their preferences. I choose whether or not I am attracted to males or females. I have never met a person that is so much a slave to their hormones that they don't have a choice in anything and everything they do. Many mass murders have said it wasn't their choice to do the things they did, it was genetic. I use that as an extreme example of much lesser topics such as this to point out I think that is simply giving away your ability to make choice.

"I choose whether or not I am attracted to males or females."

I am having a very hard time swallowing that one. I mean isn't this sentence a oxymoron at it's best? What I am saying is an attraction is not something you choose. It may be a choice to ACT on the attraction. All the crap the gay community gets and has to put up with I find it hard to believe any one would "Choose" to be gay. In my opinion it's similar to being able to choose your sex or choose your race. No, I don't think you have a choice if your gay or not.


12/24/2017 2:22:00 PM #37

Posted By Dariusacmar at 6:54 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

Morality is a choice, just like being LGBT is a choice, just like everything in this world is a choice. Those that choose to not want something like same sex child contracts in a game they play because of their personal code of morality, and choose to dispute your suggestion on such a basis, should be no less valid than your wanting it based on your life preferences/choices.

In your words - “everything in this world is a choice,” so surely being straight is a choice and so is having white or black skin, therefore we shouldn’t include it in the game because it “will devolve into a ‘shouting match’”

Thank you if you’re trying to support LGBT people, but this is not the right way to put it. We shouldn’t be censoring who we are because certain people will have a problem with it.

In response to the thread - I think it would be wonderful. For many people, Elyria will be a place to escape to from the real world. We should, as a community, be nurturing this idea and supporting those with real life problems.


~ Alyvs Trésdaum

12/24/2017 3:15:43 PM #38

@ Gunnlang You do have a point, but what if I don't want to have a child contract with an NPC? I mean at this point I haven't seriously started thinking about what traits of the subject other person I would like to combine with but still I'd like the option. I have thought about which other race tentatively. That seems more interesting to me than an NPC but once we are up and running I may find that NPC child contracts work just fine. The NPCs will be different races too, I guess I wasn't thinking about that. oops lol

The OP asked for everyones thoughts and I gave my opinion. Its not a huge deal, just a wish and request to the devs.

12/24/2017 4:09:33 PM #39

If it becomes allowed I would rather there be a full physical change to the character models to remove the sex differences completely than have a magic potion freely available in a game that is supposed to have very little magic in it.


12/24/2017 4:27:46 PM #40

Posted By Kaynadin at 11:09 AM - Sun Dec 24 2017

If it becomes allowed I would rather there be a full physical change to the character models to remove the sex differences completely than have a magic potion freely available in a game that is supposed to have very little magic in it.

There's already virtually no difference between male and female characters besides slight visual differences on the model. The inability to have a child as an LGBT couple is not a negative. There's no buff for having kids, just grab a random NPC off the street and sign a paper with them. Hell, I'm hetero and I'll be doing that, because CoE is just a first person Eugenics Simulator II.

12/24/2017 5:02:46 PM #41

Posted By mickdude2 at 5:27 PM - Sun Dec 24 2017

There's already virtually no difference between male and female characters besides slight visual differences on the model. The inability to have a child as an LGBT couple is not a negative. There's no buff for having kids, just grab a random NPC off the street and sign a paper with them. Hell, I'm hetero and I'll be doing that, because CoE is just a first person Eugenics Simulator II.

In which case, why would we prohibit same-sex child contracts (other than to cater for backward people)? There is zero extra time involved in programming it (in fact easier because you don't need to Male AND Female). The only real objections I've read here are:

-"I object because I don't really understand why but I want to object" -"I object because of personal morality where I want to tell other people how to live their life because I like to feel morally superior and it doesn't even affect me" -"I object because biological reasons in a game that doesn't have biology"


12/24/2017 5:28:23 PM #42

Posted By mojomonkey at 12:02 PM - Sun Dec 24 2017

Posted By mickdude2 at 5:27 PM - Sun Dec 24 2017

There's already virtually no difference between male and female characters besides slight visual differences on the model. The inability to have a child as an LGBT couple is not a negative. There's no buff for having kids, just grab a random NPC off the street and sign a paper with them. Hell, I'm hetero and I'll be doing that, because CoE is just a first person Eugenics Simulator II.

In which case, why would we prohibit same-sex child contracts (other than to cater for backward people)? There is zero extra time involved in programming it (in fact easier because you don't need to Male AND Female). The only real objections I've read here are:

-"I object because I don't really understand why but I want to object" -"I object because of personal morality where I want to tell other people how to live their life because I like to feel morally superior and it doesn't even affect me" -"I object because biological reasons in a game that doesn't have biology"

Couldn't agree with you more. Especially about the objecting parts. Number 2 is the one I most strongly suspect. And to be honest, isn't your third reason for them objecting just a thinly veiled version of the second. Whether they come out and say it or not, I am pretty sure that we all know what the real reason most people are objecting to it is. Especially the ones that are down voting the OP and not saying why. And thats pretty sad in this day and age.


12/24/2017 5:46:22 PM #43

Posted By Kaynadin at 11:09 AM - Sun Dec 24 2017

If it becomes allowed I would rather there be a full physical change to the character models to remove the sex differences completely than have a magic potion freely available in a game that is supposed to have very little magic in it.

LOL, now thats going too far in the other direction. Heres the thing. Unless I am mistaken potions are in game. Or, it is widely assumed they are in game at this point. By definition a potion is,

"A potion (from Latin potio "drink") is a magical medicine, drug in liquid form.

In mythology and literature, a potion is usually made by a magician, dragon, fairy or witch and has magical properties. It is used for various motives including the healing, bewitching or poisoning of people. For example, love potions for those who wish to fall in love (or become deeply infatuated) with another; sleeping potions to cause long-term or eternal sleep (in folklore, this can range from the normal REM sleep to a deathlike coma); and elixirs to heal/cure any wound/malady.

Creations of potions of different kinds were a common practice of alchemy, and were commonly associated with witchcraft, as in The Tragedy of Macbeth by William Shakespeare.

During the 19th century, it was common in certain countries to see wandering charlatans offering curative potions. These were eventually dismissed as quackery.

In modern fantasy, potions are often portrayed as spells in liquid form, capable of causing a variety of effects, including healing, amnesia, infatuation, transformation, invisibility, and invulnerability.[1]"

Now if they are in game for other things, there goes your whole argument for it not being in game for this. So, it's ok to have Litches and Vampires and Canus Rabbits and nothing but a species of hermaphrodites but having potions is just going to dam far!


12/24/2017 8:43:09 PM #44

Hail Elyrians,

First, I want to say thanks for having a civil conversation about the topic. It's always great to see our community interacting with each other with dignity, respect, and a willingness to have open conversation about a topic - no matter how hot-button it is.

Second, rather than provide a direct response to the OP, let me pose a counter-argument. This is afterall, how good design discussions progress.

So my question for you is this: Given that we've allowed same-sex marriage and the ability to have children outside of marriage - why might we be insisting on heterogeneous reproduction? What does that do for the game from a design perspective? How does it affect the players who may be interested in playing?

GO!

EDIT: Please quote when responding so others know what you're responding to.


12/24/2017 8:54:16 PM #45

Posted By Caspian at 12:43 PM - Sun Dec 24 2017

Hail Elyrians,

First, I want to say thanks for having a civil conversation about the topic. It's always great to see our community interacting with each other with dignity, respect, and a willingness to have open conversation about a topic - no matter how hot-button it is.

Second, rather than provide a direct response to the OP, let me pose a counter-argument. This is afterall, how good design discussions progress.

So my question for you is this: Given that we've allowed same-sex marriage and the ability to have children outside of marriage - why might we be insisting on heterogeneous reproduction? What does that do for the game from a design perspective? How does it affect the players who may be interested in playing?

One way it affects players is requiring a same sex couple to seek out another character willing to enter such a contract instead of doing it themselves.

In advertising for this third party, they have to open themselves up to feedback from other players...and gamers don’t have a good reputation for sensitivity on these topics.

That said, I don’t know how freely NPCs will enter into child contracts with PCs they aren’t married to. If that hurdle is trivial, the problem above can be circumvented. But it can also be circumvented by simply letting any two characters sign the contract regardless of gender.

...