Still Snipe, we all had been operating with the understanding that all EP we bought was to be used up before launch or you lose it in exchange for SP. It was supposed to justify the pay 2 dev 2 win model you guys had. Give funds get power. Power that could be destroyed, lost, or userped while the game found equilibrium on its own as no further cash shop items would be sold after that point as everyone would need to put their cards on the table and simply let the game play out. That model was perfectly exceptable to me.

But I agree with Malais on this one as this is different then their model before and handing out trump cards you can play whenever its safe to while everyone else is forced to fight to keep theirs. People who have already spent EP wont have that luxury and neither will playes after launch. Its a creep and I don't like it one bit. There are better ways to cash grab.

Warlander I really cant agree with your position as stated "But I agree with Malais on this one as this is different then their model before and handing out trump cards you can play whenever its safe to while everyone else is forced to fight to keep theirs. People who have already spent EP wont have that luxury and neither will playes after launch. Its a creep and I don't like it one bit. There are better ways to cash grab."

Have you actually looked at the items in the promotion? I certainly wouldn't be inclined to call them trump cards, convenience items sure, bought in bulk possibly pay to win, but I haven't seen the funds raised totals skyrocketing and Snipehunters posts seem to indicate they have considered how many purchases might be destabilizing to the intended gameplay mechanics. We don't even know if we can find/harvest any of these resources in the wild with minimal effort and perhaps some luck. Finding a couple wild horses and herding them into a waiting paddock might be all that is required for an intrepid horse breeder to start their business. Once spawned into the world I would assume they are just the same as any other item and might quickly meet misfortune.

At the end of the day, having promotions of this sort- though perhaps with caps on quantity- far from being pay to win would in fact allow newcomers more parity ingame. Now if we were talking nonrenewable resources that would be a whole other kettle of fish.

It is surprising how negative some of the reactions in this thread are, especially considering how careful SbS seems to be with these promotions. Take a look at any crowdfunded game. None of these promotions come even close to what you might consider P2W.

Caspian has always made it clear that he would treat people with a lot of free time equal to those with a lot of free money. If we want this game, they need to put in place a lot more aggressive marketing tactics. This game is not P2W enough yet. Keep in mind, even in all those games that are really P2W, those that pay make sure the rest can play for free. Want to pay $ 120 per spark instead? Which is reasonable, considering that's what I paid for WoW per year.

My question is whether the tokens are also given and used during expo. I know the promo post said we get tokens, but that's because people not in expo can also buy them. Since Snipe also confirmed we can buy livestock with EP - thus pulling them out of thin air like everything else - I'm curious if those of us in expo that get the prized livestock (as an example) will also have to find a NPC, or if they'll just appear. Since expo is about building the world I could see it being either.

good point Esoba i would support that during expo token based products act similar to ep as they dont need a vendor. set it that once release happens that vendors are then required.

this would promote any one during expo to use there tokens as they wont be limited by a vendor supply shortage.

this would solve your problem of people in expo saving tokens till latter and get more things into the world sooner.

I am sorry you guys don't see it that way but I did not draw that line in the sand, SBS did. It may be something you don't see as a cash shop item but if you were to introduce a cash shop that relied on the product being available in game this is exactly how you introduce one. You don't start with huge token items you start out with something small then sit back and see the response to what people say. If they don't say anything or the heat dies down quickly then you push it as far as it can go. I get that they need to make money but like I said there are other ways to do it that dont cross some imaginary line SBS said they would never cross yet here we are...

Still these items are ones you pay with real money and do not need to have in game currency to use and can use them whenever you feel like it when there is stock to exchange the token. It is just like buying gold from a gold farmer. It is something you were not supposed to be able to do before now.

And while food may not seem like a big deal to those defending the promo tokens you are in a sense bypassing the struggle for survival that everyone in the game should have to face. But now whenever anything happens to you, you are all good because you can turn around and restock and instantly overcome whatever is thrown at you. It may not spawn it instantly but it still does the same exact thing as a cash shop.

And even though you say it is not creating items out of thin air it is still creating gold or currency out of thin air. A token has no set value. If you wait until pigs for instance are at an all time high you can go to your family NPC and buy your own pigs or your friends pigs and just give each other tons of free money neither had before.

Warlander, we are not saying its not a cash shop item, we are arguing its not pay to win. You cant say something that is available with REASONABLE effort that is being purchased in limited quantities from a cash shop is pay to win. Being effectively gated through cash shop purchases is what is pay to win. Now if someone is buying 100 seed kits or something like that I can see your point and think reasonable limits might be a good idea to set openly, ie limit 5 or 3 or whatnot per account. This pavlovian response to cash shops as a great evil is only rational in the sense that the mere existence of one can put you on a 'slippery slope' to fund development they are offering items that I think at least in this round are fairly benign, I had some issues with the ships and such last month because I would assume they would require significantly more time and effort to produce in game than this months offerings.

Ultimately I suppose my stance on cash shops is as follows. A game will inevitably have either a sanctioned or unsanctioned one pop up, I would much rather see the developers offer something balanced and see the game profit than the gold farmer types establishing a significant foothold in a game.

As a footnote to the developers something you might want to consider now, and its probably buried in fine print somewhere that nobody reads. It might be beneficial if you stated directly something to the effect that if a cash shop item your offering ends up greatly affecting the intended balance of the game you reserve the right to alter the item to exposition points or some other form of ingame currency. Of course there also exists the chance that the developers WANT a certain predatory population that uses game mechanics in new and unintended ways to generate content.

Posted By Dariusacmar at 10:23 AM - Fri Jun 22 2018

As it stands, the Tokens will have a small impact on the game...but imo, no more than if that same person instead spent 3 hours extra for one week playing/working on that part of the game the tokens would have affected.

I like that you are throwing out random numbers there. While knowing this game is an survival game, where like any other survival games. Nothing comes that easily. I agree with Malais post, who says it better than I could.

At the end, if SBS has a limit on it. It could still be controlled by a few rich people all working together and buying a ton of them. Does that not throw an advantage their way?

While something people seem to be not thinking about, this is for all promotion items, not just this month ones. And while we are, my personal guess, at least 2 years out from launch. There are going to be many different types of promotion items brought out.

Posted By Gunnlang at 10:34 PM - Fri Jun 22 2018

Posted By Dariusacmar at 10:23 AM - Fri Jun 22 2018

As it stands, the Tokens will have a small impact on the game...but imo, no more than if that same person instead spent 3 hours extra for one week playing/working on that part of the game the tokens would have affected.

I like that you are throwing out random numbers there. While knowing this game is an survival game, where like any other survival games. Nothing comes that easily. I agree with Malais post, who says it better than I could.

At the end, if SBS has a limit on it. It could still be controlled by a few rich people all working together and buying a ton of them. Does that not throw an advantage their way?

While something people seem to be not thinking about, this is for all promotion items, not just this month ones. And while we are, my personal guess, at least 2 years out from launch. There are going to be many different types of promotion items brought out.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it :) I did pick it a bit randomly, but mostly I picked 3 hours because that is slightly longer than 1 day in Elyrian time and I figured that would be more than enough for a decently skilled (not master or higher) individual working alone or with someone else to catch a couple pigs, chickens and sheep, or plant a couple dozen extra plants, giving themselves several hundred extra seed come harvest time. Each of those examples being the equivalent of 1 token.

So I’ve taken a few days to let my ire settle a bit and organize my thoughts a bit better. Especially after confusing 1 poster for another I thought I should give it some time. After careful consideration I believe the issue isn’t pay to win or even the existence of a cash shop but how this seems so familiar.

From an older post Caspian himself weighed in after a double monarch made a post about legendary items and receipts being available for ep.

Those quick PSA's out of the way, I don't believe Adam's topic post was about either legendary items, blueprints, or any other item available in the EP store. I think the point Adam was trying to make was whether we're "Pay-to-Win" or not, what matters is the perception people have. And he's right.

When we sit down with someone and explain to them how there is an option to "Pay to Build," and then go through and talk about why it's not pay-to-win, most people get it eventually. But in a market where people make decisions quickly and first impressions matter more than we like, it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle - regardless of whether it's true or not

source

The ability to purchase anything be it seed packs or raider ships flies in the face of the stated goal above of pay to build. The persistence of these tokens removes the argument that anything purchased with real world funds would be used to build the world in Exposistion.

Anyone who thinks a little outside the box can see how this setup can be exploited. Example.

Snipehunter called tokens gift cards and stated a pc merchant who accepts one will be compensated in coinage for the tokens use. Following that logic the token is now not only valuable in terms of items but also in coin.

Assuming a set value of 100 coins for a raider ship, I can redeem my token to myself (or my shipwright alt) and my alt now has 100 coins and I have a ship. Instead I just trade the ship back and take the coins with my main.

I just bought coins from the cash shop.

This brings back memories of when SBS was going to allow people to buy gold back in the day but changed the system because it smacked of pay to win. Using a little thought and planning we can now buy coins once more.

Conversely let’s think about the set value in coins of each token. In an area where wood is scarce the value of a raider ship could be as much as 1000 coins yet the token if it has a set value is only 100 the merchant either takes a loss if the game doesn’t adjust the value, or if it does using my pervious example I just purchased 1000 coins from the cash shop.

If the value of redemption on the tokens is based on the price set by the merchant you can see how easily it would be to exploit the system and end up with tons of coins. Sure everything can be stolen but do you think an organized gamer guild would pass up the chance to make a fortune and have members on site to help with transport and defense? Conversely if a merchant has to accept a token if they have the stock if the tokens value is less than the base production cost in a given area the merchant could be driven out of business by accepting these tokens.

Snipehunter states SBS is aware of the impact and is tracking the tokens but given the sheer number of items available and the time between now and launch something will be exploited.

This leads me back to my issue with this system. We can explain to other new folks that expo isn’t the live version of the game. We are in essence customizing the game with real world money. Even the game rules won’t be fully in effect during expo (pvp and crime being slowly added so the world can be built before its destroyed). This to me makes perfect sense with the pay to build philosophy mentioned by Caspian. However persistent tokens for everything from food to ships and weapons... this is a much harder sell and frankly even if it is exploit proof, the persistent tokens seem like a complete 180 on the whole pay to build idea.

I get that SBS needs to find the game but given how we seem to be sliding more and more to micro transactions how far will we slide toward pay to win because SBS needs more and more funding and finds it harder to find any?

The very reason coe lacks a publisher/invester is because those Caspian spoke to wanted micro transactions or loot boxes. He made a passionate post about holding true to his vision of the game yet this seems like a small (very small) step in the wrong direction.

Edit: fixed a couple problems created by posting via mobile.

Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Sat Jun 23 2018

Assuming a set value of 100 coins for a raider ship, I can redeem my token to myself (or my shipwright alt) and my alt now has 100 coins and I have a ship. Instead I just trade the ship back and take the coins with my main.

I just bought coins from the cash shop.

hrmm - i might be getting lost in the train of logic here

i'm not seeing how you would have the coins AND the ship

as i am seeing it you would use the 100 coins to purchase the ship from the ship merchant?

thus you could have the 100 coins or the ship, but not both?

Posted By Dleatherus at 10:22 AM - Sat Jun 23 2018

Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Sat Jun 23 2018

Assuming a set value of 100 coins for a raider ship, I can redeem my token to myself (or my shipwright alt) and my alt now has 100 coins and I have a ship. Instead I just trade the ship back and take the coins with my main.

I just bought coins from the cash shop.

hrmm - i might be getting lost in the train of logic here

i'm not seeing how you would have the coins AND the ship

as i am seeing it you would use the 100 coins to purchase the ship from the ship merchant?

thus you could have the 100 coins or the ship, but not both?

As explained by Snipehunter the token is given to the merchant who could end up being a player. The merchant then turns the token into coinage.

Thankfully, that's something we've thought about, Tadakatsu. Think of a token as something akin to a bearer bond. Or, we can think of it like the gift card metaphor mentioned earlier: A gift card works because the vendor gets paid. Tokens will do much the same thing.

Source

So while a little hard to follow the token has 2 values (1) as the item in my example a ship, and (2) the value in coins of the item or ship after redemption.

My guild is a shipwrights guild and my gamer group each buys 10 tokens for raider ships. We work and have the resources to produce a single ship and put it up for sale for 100 coins (or whatever value). I use a token to buy it. The guild member who is the acting merchant redeems the token for coins and I give the ship back to him ie sell it for the same 100 coins. Then I use another of my remaining 9 tokens. Wash rinse repeat I have now purchased and resold the same shop 10 times creating 1000 coins that didn’t exist without removing any stock from the world.

Requires some work but if the game world is a true closed economy I just created money from nothing. The problem is compounded by the rest of my guild doing the same thing.

It’s not too difficult to see how this could be conceived as pay to win. I and my gamer group can exploit the system as it has been explained to break the local economy. We can now buy up all the local wood or whatever to drive out the other shipwrights, or use it to hire an army of thugs to kill off the competition. As the coins didn’t come from actual work in game it is an unintended advatange based on the permanence of tokens and makes it much harder to explain the pay to build model.

There are other ways I see to exploit the system but this is the easiest to explain.

i see where you're coming from on this now - ty for explaining

So if you turn in your ship token to the ship vendor (shipwright), the ship that the vendor has is then sold to you. For argument's sake, let's say that the ship is worth 100 coins, average market value, in the county that the shipwright is located in. At the time of sale, the shipwright selling the ship procs a code, embedded in the token upon in-game transfer and instead of receiving a token receives 100 coins. According to you, your alt (a shipwright in this instance) is getting 100 free coins and you are getting a ship.

The problem that I see with this scenario is that your alt (the shipwright) still had to make the ship. He had to harvest the lumber, treat the lumber, shape it and then build the ship...and that isn't even counting all the parts such as nails, rope, sails, ballast and tar...and anything else I am forgetting that is used in the making of a ship. I'm not sure why you think you're getting 100 free coins....it seems to me that you worked your ass off for it making the ship, and so should rightly get paid for it, just as if anyone without a token had bought it. The same would go for your other markets scenarios.

All in all, the only benefit the token holder receives, is that he didn't have to pay 100 coins for the ship and he receives a ship. IMO the market hasn't been exploited, because it is still based on available supply. All that it does is save the token user a little to a lot of real life play time. In the case of said ship, probably somewhere between a couple days to a week of real life play time (the time it would take to build that ship or earn up enough coin to buy it from someone that built it)....and that is of course only if he can find a vendor that has said ship.