100% with you and thanks for posting. I do see a lot of conversation being repressed by a few medieval weapon geeks ripping weapon design to shreds... but this time is was easier going.

The sad part isnt that it almost always causes negative and pointless arguments in which almost all parties read way too much into it, but it results in people missing the point. Discord erupted into a back and forth on what they perceived the brudvir weapon weight as, and only me and one other guy (Cameron) brought up the CoE relevant subjects like that it would be used for survival, and its multipurpose.

Essentially, everyone gets caught up in a "nerd-off" over who knows the most medieval junk and "how to fight/kill a man" (lol u gais) and all of the good stuff is completely glazed over. Starting to understand the hesitation they have in regards to releasing early content.

I assume you created this discussion based on my comments. I'll bite.

Ill say it again one more time...

Pretty much everything but the tribes, chimeras, and a few other things are a medieval survival simulator.

The funny thing is when you ask for actual fantasy elements this game is suddenly not a fantasy game, and yet when you ask for more realism suddenly this game is a fantasy game again. The game has shifted towards realism and they are currently looking for people with realistic professional knowledge of medieval combat and profession knowledge.

I have also seen the devs refer to this game as mid-high fantasy, mid fantasy, low fantasy, low-mid fantasy.

Tell me how those few things which are fantasy skins arent still part of a medieval survival sim?

Just because they attempt to simulate real life in some regards doesn't mean it applies to everything. Realism is there as a treat to us, its not required.

Basically, if its realistic and science AF they did it for your enjoyment. If they isnt science AF it's because they thought it would be better, and so its for your enjoyment. But that doesnt mean every weapon HAS to follow the same rules as real life Earth (this is a video game in Elyria).

Besides, we're still glazing over the good stuff which is the bigger tragedy of these situations.

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 11:27 PM - Fri Jul 06 2018

I assume you created this discussion based on my comments. I'll bite.

Please don't assume this. Me making this thread was an attempt to have a general discussion concerning an amalgam of comments that have been made by dozens of people over numerous threads. I hope no one gets defensive over this friendly conversation.

In a world where some folks (like me) will decide to buy some plots of land and farm, sure, it will probably be a more mundane, low-fantasy situation in the day-to-day. But at the same time, I'm not even comfortable making that assumption. Who knows what will come into my town on any given day? I not only provided words, I provided a link - from Caspian himself - calling the game mid-fantasy. I have a feeling that he's calling it that because that is where the fantasy pendulum hits its equilibrium.

Yeah honestly I didnt see this as a dish to any particular people. If anything today reinforced the reality that some people really do project their wishes into the development. A bunch of people did buy into this because theyre looking for (another) medieval sim.

I just want to make sure their fantasies aren't messin with CoE. If the demands/arguments go unchallenged we may very well end up with a game that isnt actually CoE.

If you ask any honest gamer who doesn't care about the medieval "this is how you kill a man easily" geek offs, they're gunna tell you that a bit of fantasy isnt gunna hurt. In fact Game Of Thrones was made by it.

No offense taken :) It just seemed to coincide with one of my comments.

They always ask for feedback and I give mine the same as anyone else.

SbS has put themselves in this position. They had a fantasy game before they did an about face and went for near mirror realism to things like smithing. I was fine with the fantasy they first presented.

But now that pretty much everything else has a sim feel to it these fantasy weapon concepts just look strange and out of place compared to everything else. Now if I see someone running around swining the Brudvir poleaxe like nothing when it looks way to heavy or mishapen to do what it is intended to do it again looks out of place.

But with all realism and seemingly mirror simulation of many systems I would prefer them to start with real weapons to start and expand out from there to match the overall theme they are presenting these days.

Fair enough on the feedback. I don't view their changing from mini-games to a more realistic smithing (or other crafts) as a sign that the entire game is going to be low-fantasy. I see it as the studio wanting to make things more interesting. You can review their reasons in a couple of Q&A videos. Wanting to make the whole game more low-fantasy wasn't the reason.

As to the Brudvir axe, the Brudvir are described as "one of the most physically impressive tribes." Why shouldn't they wield weapons that play to their literal strengths? Designing "real" weapons is easy. I'm sure they already have a ton of regular dagger, long sword, rapier, spear, and other normal assets already in the can. They're the ones we've all seen before so I don't care to see them. I, for one, am glad they're showing us the fun stuff. But this thread isn't about the Brudvir axe. It's about the overall impression I'm getting that people think that everything has to be realistic when it doesn't.

Not too be pedantic, and I may be wrong, but while the game is not meant to simulator a specific historical time period on Earth, it is still supposed to simulate realistic physics and mechanics with plausible, fictionally realistic fantasy elements.

If an average time period were selected, I believe Medieval would be considered too advanced, on average.

These two points are why I probably I disagree with it being labelled a Medieval Simulator, a) not about a historical earth time period, b) in terms of development, medieval is perhaps too advanced.

It is still somewhat of a simulator though.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with a weapon being unbalanced, too heavy, oddly shaped or strange and nothing like found in any time period on earth..

Why do I say this? Simply because history is filled with failed inventions, prototypes and new ideas that don't work, or don't work properly...

Over time as society develops and becomes more advanced, these failures and imperfect items are reviewed and fixed or refined to make them better.

Just have a look at how tools, machines, weapons and armour change and evolve. Look at the first attempts at making something, there are plenty of examples of would-be tools, machines, weapons and armour that were either abandoned or changed because a better way of doing it was found.

Based on this, I don't care what the items in CoE look like because they are a starting point for improvements to be made.

Lastly, not all tribes have access to the same resources, so they have to improvise with what they have. It may not be the best design, but it may be the best they can do to start with.

Posted By HajimeSaito at 5:33 PM - Sat Jul 07 2018

These two points are why I probably I disagree with it being labelled a Medieval Simulator, a) not about a historical earth time period, b) in terms of development, medieval is perhaps too advanced.

It is still somewhat of a simulator though.

Posted By Teland at 5:29 PM - Sat Jul 07 2018

It's about the overall impression I'm getting that people think that everything has to be realistic when it doesn't.

The trick is making it relatable ENOUGH so that our imaginations and drives can handle the nuisances. The result is like Dungeons and Dragons, it doesnt come down to realism but rather how we connect to the world we're gaming in. Avoiding the simulation route opens up more room for creativity, and much more design potential that even the "gimme a hardcore sim" will thank them for in the end.

But yeah the ultimate point here is that this is simply not a hardcore simulation of medieval times, and this thread will go some distance in regards to tempering expectations. Really and truly, a vast majority of people didn't buy into this for realism. The game has souls, talents, magical elements and myths, occult 'species'(?) and astronomical events that interact with Elyria in ways that go beyond the physical.

I haven't really had a problem with any of the reveals apart from the Brudvir axe. They are meant to be consummate woodsmenn and should really know axes but the one in the reveal looks like it would be a poor weapon and a poor survival tool. Its just not something that I can imagine a tribe that prides itself on wood work etc having a as a common item.

I don't mind fantasy flourishes but they should really be in keeping with the the more simulation aim of the game and also look like they should fit with what we know of the tribes, and an axe like the one we just saw doesn't (IMO) fit with the knowledge and skills of the Brudvir.

I think you're confusing two things.

Sure CoE isn't a "medieval simulator", but it needs to be realistic, follow the rules it sets for its universe, else it becomes unimmersive.

And I think that's where the main "discussion" lies, not how close it is to our world, but rather, if it makes sense for them to use the weapons they do in their respective environments and their biology. As Souzou said about the design of mounts; "we don't want to design animals for the sole reason of 'they could make cool mounts', but rather that it makes sense for them to have evolved like that." Something along those lines.

This, of course, applies to weapon, armour etc. As well, if they are just gonna add in weapons because they "look cool" then they're going against the design philosophy they've tried to make, and that's what I think most people criticize under the guise of "medieval simulator".

Example: It would make little sense for a kypiq to rely on a fist weapon, as the strenght behind a kypiq (and reach) is severely limited, and easily out-matched by any of the other tribes. If they did make fist weapons for the kypiq I think people would 'complain' again, since what part of their culture/evolution made this a good weapon?

Or when the Dras weapon was introduced I was a bit sceptical as well, because why wouldn't they have a weapon that made use of the swamp they live in, and the huge defenciveness it gives? Why, when people walk slower in swamps, wouldnt they want to have a weapon that knocks the enemy down, making them even more stuck in swamps, or a long poky stick that's easy to stab them with as they try to catch them. In that instance it could seem like the weapon wasn't designed with "Oh this makes sense for them to have created such a weapon over a long time of evolution" and instead feels more like "Let's look at some different kind of weapons used in real life, oh that ones design looks unique, let's make something like that for the dras." (even though it wouldn't work well as a weapon, especially with the leather bindings which could easily be cut off, and the the weapon would fall apart. Do they look cool? Sure, but they actually retracts from the "realism" in the gameworld.)

If the game want's to immerse you, the second way is not the right way of going about creating stuff, especially since they already said they want to create a believable world.

Posted By Sagan at 08:26 AM - Sat Jul 07 2018

100% with you and thanks for posting. I do see a lot of conversation being repressed by a few medieval weapon geeks ripping weapon design to shreds... but this time is was easier going.

Essentially, everyone gets caught up in a "nerd-off" over who knows the most medieval junk and "how to fight/kill a man" (lol u gais) and all of the good stuff is completely glazed over. Starting to understand the hesitation they have in regards to releasing early content.

First off - rude! Really not a good start to a discussion.

Anyways, to the topic at hand ... As Liva has already said very well it's not about the weapons not being carbon-copies of RL weapons, but rather about weapons (&armor) being treated completely different from everything else - in my opinion worse. Making them unique seems to be a lot more important than having them make sense. For example the janoan shield probably came from something like "All janoan arms&armor should be aggressive" ...

Another problem, that I think Liva once again explained perfectly, is the dichotomy of how the game is being talked about when someone brings up magic and fantasy or weapons and armor.

So, to finally start adding some thoughts of my own ... what I think is also something that is lost with their approach to arms and armor is 'What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get' ... there is no way they can make these tribal weapons get reasonable stats without an unhealthy dose of "it's a fantasy game".

Another issue especially with the brudvir axe is the huge waste of resources ... you could probably make a proper dane axe head from that pinecone at the top alone.

But yeah, those arguments somehow get drowned in all the unconditional hype that every friday shiny brings with it - at what point are we supposed to criticize?

Lumi complaining about rudeness... yes nothing sus going on here...

It wasn't intended to offend. Similar to how calling someone a "computer geek" is usually a way of saying they specialise in it, and talk about it a lot.

Plus, I have no issue with realism and basing choices around it. As per the topic, I was saying Chronicles isnt a hardcore medieval simulator.

I feel like the art team shouldn't be afraid to keep the designs simple if they can be. I liked the Hrothi design much more than the others for that reason.

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 02:27 AM - Sat Jul 07 2018

I assume you created this discussion based on my comments. I'll bite.

Ill say it again one more time...

Pretty much everything but the tribes, chimeras, and a few other things are a medieval survival simulator.

The funny thing is when you ask for actual fantasy elements this game is suddenly not a fantasy game, and yet when you ask for more realism suddenly this game is a fantasy game again. The game has shifted towards realism and they are currently looking for people with realistic professional knowledge of medieval combat and profession knowledge.

I have also seen the devs refer to this game as mid-high fantasy, mid fantasy, low fantasy, low-mid fantasy.

Tell me how those few things which are fantasy skins arent still part of a medieval survival sim?

Bul Elyria is not Earth, and that's really the beginning and end of it, honestly. Does it share elements? Sure. But they are not bound to it.