Posted By Teland at

Hi all. It seems that every time a game element is released for discussion, certain themes come to the surface pretty regularly. Inevitably, some people don't like the design of a weapon, shield, armor, or some other element of what they're seeing. Apparently, the design of something isn't realistic. There's no way someone would hold "that thing" in "that manner" or it's completely unusable.

We have 11 fantasy tribes that will be using a myriad of different personal weapons, shields, armors, siege weapons, etc., that are based in reality but also in fantasy. Chronicles of Elyria is not a medieval simulator. Not everything needs to, or should, exactly match what we see in our reality.

In a world where, despite the coyness of the studio on the subject, vampires and liches exist, magic will exist. There will be unfamiliar beasts, sentient life beyond the tribes, and many other surprises in store for us. I'd hope we can get beyond hangups of "this weapon won't work." Chronicles of Elyria will be a mid-fantasy game with high adventure. While I don't want to see characters running around with a 20 foot glowing WoW-esque sword of lightning, what I've seen so far of the sneak peeks causes me no concern. Thanks for your time.

I disagree, The topic at hand deals with the following subjects as stated in the op:

• Realism of game systems and professions
• Fantasy of chimeras, tribes, and game systems
• Asthetics of weapons, shields, armors and other elements
• Low-Mid fantasy / High Adventure
• Magic

That pretty much sums up everything in CoE up for debate on why people feel the game is a medieval (epoc) sim or not, with more realism than fantasy and the fact, fiction, hype, and perception people have with the game which is the crux of the debate at heart.

Also the op linked a thread that I created back when I was pro fantasy and lobbied for more visual representations that it exists using the op nature of magic as an overall theme for the talent system. With the "fantasy camp" not actually wanting it to be present in the game at all or in non existent levels. Or the "realism camp" also not wanting fantasy elements being prevalent in the game to make it low fantasy. Along with the posted comment by Caspian they intended. But it also brings that factor into the debate as introduced by the op.

Which cemented my view that fantasy does not actually exist in this game. If you are lucky enough to get fantasy elements you most likely will never know you had it, if you do discover you have fantasy you cant make use of it because you become a target and a liability to yourself for having it. If you do use fantasy its probably too late to even do anything cool with it anyways. And that was even before I became a count which again changes my purpose and outlook not only on the game but the fantasy elements in it.

Unless you are a traveling adventurer, merchant, a noble like a duke & king, or going to war you most likely will stay 25 miles or so near your home city like anchients up to the 19th century did unless something major happens and you are forced to move or seek out quick riches somewhere else.

So by large running a business, growing a city, and managing a county will chew up most if not all my playtime. I will not be seeking out adventure in the open world because of this and for that fact my adventure is the city management and political side of the game unless it is thrust in my lap in my own territory.

At best I see the tribes despite being fantasy oriented as just realistic humanoid skins with tribal asthetics that have muted fantasy elements. At best the surrounding creatures are fantasy.

Beyond that talents and fantasy elements are widely dispersed over the starting continent with potentially pockets of fantasy talents in the EP powerhouse kingdoms resembling gotham city with an x-men culture just because thats where the people are. Being in Alesia I don't expect to see that sort of thing at all.

What I do expect to see 98% of the time is the Medieval (epoc) sim as it is termed because primarily that is what I will experience as I survive and live within social, economical, commercial, industrial, and political elements of the simulation.

And furthermore I don't see myself being tempted to do things I wouldn't naturally do by the soulbourne system as I don't care for the crime elements of the game and want to live a just and honorable life. And if my destiny is to go far beyond my borders for an adventure to cause trouble in a rival duchy or county I simply won't subject myself to fulfill my destiny no matter how good the rewards are.

So again all that is left and what I will mostly experience anchored to the life I will lead and see in my daily life is the medieval simulator and realistic elements of the game until such time that fantasy makes a destructive cameo that cant be avoided and is slated to be rare and powerful...

So I cut and pasted this from the April DJ about crafting

"What’s changed is what a player does at each step of the loop. As much as possible, each step of that loop now mimics the real-life experience that it emulates. Of course, you aren’t going to see a 1-to-1 reproduction. This isn’t “Mining Simulator 2018” for example.

I have a rule when it comes to simulating real-world events in game: “Verisimilitude > Veracity” Which is to say, “It’s better to feel real than be real.”

Wherever possible, we’ve done what we can to streamline and “abstract” the real-world processes we’re emulating, but we’ve been very careful to preserve the “feeling” of performing the acts in question. Smithing, for example, involves a lot of heating, hammering, and grinding. Mining involves a lot of striking and breaking rocks. But we haven’t gone so deeply into either tradecraft that you’ll require real-life experience as a blacksmith to make a knife or a degree in geology to extract iron ore from a mountain. It won’t hurt to know these things in real life though; in some cases, it might even give you a head start in deciding what to do or which tools you might need for a job."

So I would agree that the devs are trying to walk the line between the two camps. With what success is still to be determined. But I think we all need to keep their underlying philosophy in mind. I think it is best summed up in that single "Verisimilitude > Veracity" line.

So do these shineys meet those requirements? If they do, then they have hit the mark. If not, then they need to be tweeked some more until they do. But that is the "sweet spot" they are aiming for.

And as someone above also pointed out above, the amount of blank space we are being given is being "colored in" by each of us based on our own personal desires and aspirations. This will continue until SBS gives us more lines to color inside.

I have my own ideas about what I think each tribe and biome should be like, but I could be way off, And also severely disappointed if they aren't the way I have built them up to be in my own head. The longer we go with little or no "concrete" information, the deeper this "discussion" will go.

While I applaud the OP for feeling the need to address this issue, I honestly don't know if there is an answer. Yet.

Hopefully the dev team will address this issue by providing more content vs. theorycrafting and then we can all get on to the actual game before we all die of old age. Some of us ain't getting any younger ya know.

Thinking about it today I really need to see a DJ that goes through the evolution of a weapon with the following:

• Something simple and small like a dagger
• Shows various metals that can be applied to the weapon at the base tech level
• Shows the grades for the raw tech level of the dagger
• Shows the variant blades, guards, handle, pommel
• Shows how the weapon evolves over the next two tech levels.

Without any sort of insight into those examples I cannot help but hyper critisize the items posted.

For one I would not expect fantasy elements to be in the basic grade of an item or total realism in relic grades. I think not seeing those polarities is why I want to see true realism in raw concepts.

Or that with tech the item looks more refined or polished or fantasy like as the research and smithing technology or knowledge add to the design over time. As time goes on I would expect to see realism start to fall by the wayside as fantasy or technology is added to the frame so to speak.

Posted By Ikkerens at 03:15 AM - Mon Jul 09 2018

I would quickly like to note that this topic is about the discussion whether CoE is a medieval simulator or not.
While some very good points have been raised, this discussion is slowly devolving into a discussion about what has/hasn't been discussed.

So let's stop that here and get back on the topic at hand, or else I'm afraid we'll be forced to lock the thread.

I don't think anyone thinks of CoE as a medieval simulator. Our differences are over our various preferences for visual representations of items. In my view, this difference is best stated as that between real-life physical verisimilitude and visually appealing embellishment. The two are not mutually exclusive, to be sure, so the real argument is over how much verisimilitude should be compromised in favor of free-reign artistic embellishment.

Note that I'm using verisimilitude in a way that SBS may not agree with, since I'm referring to items and not interactive processes. Also, embellishment may not be the most appropriate term.

Anyway, if the title of the thread does not actually agree with the contents, maybe we should attempt to define exactly what we are disagreeing about in more specific terms.

Posted By Poldano at 05:00 AM - Tue Jul 10 2018

Anyway, if the title of the thread does not actually agree with the contents, maybe we should attempt to define exactly what we are disagreeing about in more specific terms.

I can definitely see what the thread has become, and what is being discussed. However, some of the participants have tried to change the discussion to be about the discussion. Discussing what the discussion is about.

That combined with several reports we've received has forced us to intervene and ensure people discuss things respectfully at least without straying too far off the topic of CoE.

i fully agree

Posted By Poldano at 05:00 AM - Tue Jul 10 2018

I don't think anyone thinks of CoE as a medieval simulator. Our differences are over our various preferences for visual representations of items. In my view, this difference is best stated as that between real-life physical verisimilitude and visually appealing embellishment. The two are not mutually exclusive, to be sure, so the real argument is over how much verisimilitude should be compromised in favor of free-reign artistic embellishment.

Note that I'm using verisimilitude in a way that SBS may not agree with, since I'm referring to items and not interactive processes. Also, embellishment may not be the most appropriate term.

Anyway, if the title of the thread does not actually agree with the contents, maybe we should attempt to define exactly what we are disagreeing about in more specific terms.

Actually, whenever I tell someone about CoE, I start with calling it a Medieval Simulator with fantasy impact, where everyone has the freedom to play whatever he wishes, be it Peasant or Lord, Crafter or Fighter, good or evil. Thats the short summary, and then I list all those features like aging and dieing (souls), being permanently online via AI-scripts, develloping new techniques like ocean-travel and a huge world where everything is simulated via AI from trees over rabbits and wolves to bears and maybe dragons.

So yes, totally, there are players that see it as a sim and that sim is located in medieval, if you want to compare it to any real time.

And to me, the Simulation part is what will make or break the game. If they accomplish a world, which truly works without player impact and still reacts to player impact in a way that makes sense, where the AI really does viable things for every living animal instead of just randomly respawning them like in other games, and NPC really behaving realistically... thats what will keep me playing or stop me playing if it doesnt work. I'm truly bored by games where NPCs just stand around doing nothing or following simple scripts which are the same 24/7 and have no impact on the world, because there's no interaction with them and the world. Like in WoW, where all NPCs do is either talk with you and give you the same quests they gave 100000 players before you or fight and nothing else.

From the beginning, they've been very clear on the level of fantasy. That said what is Fantasy to us may not be Fantasy to Elyrians...

We also have to consider this is why they've implemented their 'expert' system.

Thanks, Snipehunter, that was helpful.

I think another term for veracity, as you've used it, might be authenticity. As you have used it, veracity is that which is authentic to real life. There are different bases to authenticity. What matters in CoE, as I see it, is authenticity to Elyrian lore, traditions, and material conditions. The lore and traditions are partly being defined by the shinies being revealed/proposed, so arguing authenticity on that basis is risky. Material conditions are more solid, so arguing authenticity on that basis should be more straightforward.

The latter is where I've mostly tried to be, although I throw in some of the former when there is pre-existing lore that seems to be relevant. Real-world authenticity doesn't really count, except indirectly as it might have been determined largely by material conditions that are identical to or analogous to those in Elyria. We can and will differ about the degree of determinism that material conditions impose, both in RL and in Elyria, so we will always have reasons for honest disagreement even when we know everything about the material conditions of Elyria.

Posted By Poldano at 6:38 PM - Tue Jul 10 2018

What matters in CoE, as I see it, is authenticity to Elyrian lore, traditions, and material conditions. The lore and traditions are partly being defined by the shinies being revealed/proposed, so arguing authenticity on that basis is risky.

I think that this is also a most relevant point you bring up here. Is the lore defining the objects or do the objects define the lore? Or is it both at the same time?

If you are seeking a simulator play Deliverance, kingdom come or Medieval engineer's. It's been stated many times that COE is meant to be a low TO mid fantasy game. The core gameplay I feel will be very simulated in it's approach. Trade, economics, politics, etc.

However unless the combat style was going to be like kingdom come or for honor (would not complain mind you) I fully expect that the combat will be very much like a traditional mmo as it's easier to code and far easier for your average gamer to pick it up and be half way decent at it.

My only gripe with what I've seen is that latest brudvier axe simply because I feel the shaft is far to thin to hold a blade that thick. I have nothing against the weapon itself, just the shaft's thickness.

Regardless I agree with the OP and feel that the historians of the community must take a step back and reassess the grand plan of COE. If they are seeking a full blown simulator I'm afraid they have invested their money into the wrong game and will be disappointed greatly with their choice. However, if they are willing to accept the fantasy elements, some of the grit and thought of adventure that comes with COE they may enjoy and look past some of the combat styles not adding up to what they want.

I keep hearing talk about the physics in the game, how things have to be perfect or it won't match with the physics. Are they expected to apply those exact same physics then for everything? If you take an axe to a tree is the game supposed to calculate how hard the swing was a the angle it struck the tree and then calculate how deep a cut should be in a tree pole? While also taking into account how thick the axe was? I'd argue that adhering perfectly to the physics of the world will bog down this game to the point where no one will even get to play it.

If we start arguing for perfect adherence to physics where do we draw the line is my point. At some point it needs to just be good enough and that should be for the majority of players. Sorry if you're a weapons expert or any expert in real life, but to cater to the minority beyond a reasonable amount would be silly.

Exactly! I think we should be focused on Playability Over Perfection. The unfamiliar weapons and apparently ill-designed armor are a good example. Another older example is the horse/saddle. I recall someone saying that a saddle wouldn't be that far forward on the horse. While this is good information to have, and SbS might certainly have the time to change up the model, is this so game breaking that it would totally destroy your ability to enjoy the world? If so, you may want to reconsider your priorities.

I do want the game to run smoothly and be playable, but I don't need everything to be perfect and delayed another 6 months if the studio feels obligated to correct things for a small, but vocal, minority of people. A lot of us won't even notice these little things - as they aren't the focus of the average person.