I think P deserves a spot in round 2 just to see the rivers and fjords and lakes etc.
It’s one of the more unique maps, along wit H, K and T, which all deserve a spot in round 2 in one of the servers.

Posted By Watru at

Consider [Vetoing P]

Umm you want folks to vote for P or Veto P?

Just saying.

Kindom 4 controlls trade from North to south… so this is a BAD map

I'm fine with map P. The northern part is nice, I dont care about the southern part. And about the shape... I prefer such a shape over a thin middle. And controlling trade? How, with such a huge wide kingdom? Should they create a wall at both borders and man it with soldiers? That doesnt sound viable. With borders like that, if they raise taxes too high, people will just not pay them and sneak through without issues. no problem smuggling through kingdom4, its clearly big enough. And if someone really tries to block trades and be annoying... well... story unfolds^^

Posted By MagistrateMondra at 5:01 PM - Thu Oct 25 2018

Kindom 4 controlls trade from North to south… so this is a BAD map

Lol, you think they can keep tabs on borders that big?

You can have it, ha ha.

I'm not in Selene, but even a brief glance at map P and you can tell the Kypiq will either be a force to be reckoned with or they will go extinct as soon as they leave their forests.

Surrounded by neran, hrothi, and waerd biomes. They crafty little guys can easily get better materials for their technological advances.

Posted By Malais at 11:56 PM - Thu Oct 25 2018

Posted By Watru at

Consider [Vetoing P]

Umm you want folks to vote for P or Veto P?

Just saying.

Lol yes i fixed it auto correct got me again.

And am glad P is so well received lets try to get it to Selene top 5. Vote now :)

My 2 cents

Map P for Selene is anything but fair:

• with K1 and K2 Dem will have ~1/3 of the entire map
• stacked like a pile of pancakes, borders too wide to defend
• Kypiq biome is squeezed into Dem and hard to defend
• Dem & Arkadia only get 1 neighbor with borders so wide it's impossible to properly defend so K3 and K5 are screwed and after that K4.

And the shape is utterly uninteresting, looks like a bog blob.

Posted By Watru at

Pros

• No single kingdom control travel north to south and vice versa.
• Good indication of a lot of rivers.
• Trade can move up and down map with no single control point.
• May be a archipelago on the West side of the continent.
• Big biomes for all races.

As these points are more assumptions and flase conclusions, in my view, i don´t really see any pro in your list.

1. • 1. Are plain guessing, even if one might see, under certain circumstances, indications for it.

2. As it was already mentioned, there is a single kingdom through wich all (landbased) travel would have to go. How much they would be able to control it, is not the point, just they will profit and influence and at some point prohibit trading. Ok, it´s still a question, for how long this influence can be kept up. But still.

3. The "no single controlpoint" is the most valid of your points, but makes it also hard for the landlocked biomes to travel over sea, which would unstrain much more. Considering, that travel &trade will most likely mainly be based on seaways..

At the end, it would be ok, to "not push this map out" of the pool, if we would be undecided for our last choice. But, for me, this is no valid candidate to promote and vote for.

We shouldn´t be discouraged by competition, when it comes to the map we will go for the rest of Selene´s Life, just because we´re >afraid< of, our votes could be "wasted". All we need is this certain Map on Selenes First Place, and a unity behind that Map, to ensure we are not as much scattered, as our competitor to that Map, for that CASE, IF it stays their Top vote.

Dedication and Unity

Vote for Map I !!! :)

P is a good option to screw everyone over. It's the perfect fuck-you map.

Even the places that Nedeea identifies as having advantages have some significant disadvantages, mainly because all of their advantages also become disadvantages if utilised by intelligent enemies. (It's also why defence-in-depth tends to be a better option than defence-en-croûte)

It is also important to note we haven't seen the topography yet so making judgements about the defensibility of borders is premature.

Posted By Nedeea at 04:49 AM - Fri Oct 26 2018

My 2 cents

Map P for Selene is anything but fair:

• with K1 and K2 Dem will have ~1/3 of the entire map

By definition, 2/6 = 1/3

• stacked like a pile of pancakes, borders too wide to defend

True, especially for the south (the north less so, kingdom 4 and 2 border each other, and kingdom 1 and 3 can border each other if they really want to (at the cost of kingdom 2 being split in two).

If this really is a problem the sedicim can fix that by redrawing borders.

• Kypiq biome is squeezed into Dem and hard to defend

Kypiq can defend themselves fairly well in their biome, and they'll have lots of crazy materials to tinker with.

• Dem & Arkadia only get 1 neighbor with borders so wide it's impossible to properly defend so K3 and K5 are screwed and after that K4.

I don't know about the politics in EU so I won't comment on that.

And the shape is utterly uninteresting, looks like a bog blob.

that's because you're not taking a close enough look.

Note that most of the geography is hidden in round 1, and some of it will be shown in round 2 (like rivers, mountains, lakes, etc). Islands will not be shown even in round 2, but could be there.

In map P, kingdom 2 has kind of like a sideways 8 shape, both of the biomes have high elevation. As you can see, on both the north and south in the mountains are surrounded by forest, which makes it seem the wind is mostly parralel to those mountains (going westward and slightly to the south). This would mean that a lot of rainwater would collect both on the north-west side of the Rocky Mountain Steppe (the border between K1 and K2, flowing northward, probably, potentially forming a lake but definitly forming one or multiple rivers). As well as on the south-east side of the lower montane (the border between K2 and k3). It's hard to predict where all that water will go exactly, it may go south-east or straight east, or both.

But seeing as how south from there there's shrublands and even Semi-arid desert (right next to a huge inland marsh, mind you) it seems the river would flow all the way from kingdom 2, through all or most of kingdom 3 all the way to the eastern shore. If it doesn't it would form a rather significant lake, which would then be located somewhere around the shrublands, probably.

Since we already established that the rain is mostly coming from the west (and slightly north) and there's a semi-arid desert right next to the marsh, this means there's likely another mountain range right in between those. It's interesting to note that the desert it completely surroundedd by low elevation and very wet biomes, except for the east which is somewhat arid.

It's impossible to predict exactly how the rivers would flow, but it's safe to assume that the mountain range that is inevitably in between the Desert and the Marsh would produce several rivers, posibly very wide (think amazon) flowing east, south, southeast or any combination of them.
Then there's the rainforest surrounded by 3 low elevation biomes, while it's hard to say for sure, the rainforest is likely to have a higher elevation than the surrounding biomes, so rivers could flow from the jungle in any direction through the other 3 biomes towards the ocean.
Basically, while it's hard to say which biomes would connect to which exactly, expect rivers basically all the way from the rainforest to the mountains in kingdom 2 (Although it's unlikely there would be a single river flowing all the way north-to-south)

Oh and then there's a somewhat random grasslands to the west, where not a lot of rain should be, considering it's surrounded by arid biomes and mountains, so there's probably at least 1 river flowing from the montane through the grasslands, and considering the shape, probably a second river from the Desert mountain range through the grasslands.

Damn that's a shitload of rivers.

.

The "no single controlpoint" is the most valid of your points, but makes it also hard for the landlocked biomes to travel over sea, which would unstrain much more. Considering, that travel &trade will most likely mainly be based on seaways..

And that's exactly why map P deserves a second look in round 2, because it's very likely it has massive rivers all the way from the ocean to deep inland, which makes trading even easier, despite being landlocked.
All of the mayor tradeports in the world are not big because they border the ocean, but because they border a major river as well as the ocean. Just bordering ocean is not enough, you have to be able to move that trade inwards, and map P shows signs that it may enable that.

I think map P deserves a spot in round 2, you can always trash it if it doesn't look good in round 2.

I must admit, it´s an interesting read, what you quoted there about the "assumptions" of waterflow. But this could be done for several other maps as well, i think.

Posted By zimmah at 4:43 PM - Fri Oct 26 2018

Posted By Nedeea at 04:49 AM - Fri Oct 26 2018

My 2 cents

Map P for Selene is anything but fair:

• with K1 and K2 Dem will have ~1/3 of the entire map

By definition, 2/6 = 1/3

• stacked like a pile of pancakes, borders too wide to defend

True, especially for the south (the north less so, kingdom 4 and 2 border each other, and kingdom 1 and 3 can border each other if they really want to (at the cost of kingdom 2 being split in two).

If this really is a problem the sedicim can fix that by redrawing borders.

• Kypiq biome is squeezed into Dem and hard to defend

Kypiq can defend themselves fairly well in their biome, and they'll have lots of crazy materials to tinker with.

• Dem & Arkadia only get 1 neighbor with borders so wide it's impossible to properly defend so K3 and K5 are screwed and after that K4.

I don't know about the politics in EU so I won't comment on that.

And the shape is utterly uninteresting, looks like a bog blob.

that's because you're not taking a close enough look.

Note that most of the geography is hidden in round 1, and some of it will be shown in round 2 (like rivers, mountains, lakes, etc). Islands will not be shown even in round 2, but could be there.

In map P, kingdom 2 has kind of like a sideways 8 shape, both of the biomes have high elevation. As you can see, on both the north and south in the mountains are surrounded by forest, which makes it seem the wind is mostly parralel to those mountains (going westward and slightly to the south). This would mean that a lot of rainwater would collect both on the north-west side of the Rocky Mountain Steppe (the border between K1 and K2, flowing northward, probably, potentially forming a lake but definitly forming one or multiple rivers). As well as on the south-east side of the lower montane (the border between K2 and k3). It's hard to predict where all that water will go exactly, it may go south-east or straight east, or both.

But seeing as how south from there there's shrublands and even Semi-arid desert (right next to a huge inland marsh, mind you) it seems the river would flow all the way from kingdom 2, through all or most of kingdom 3 all the way to the eastern shore. If it doesn't it would form a rather significant lake, which would then be located somewhere around the shrublands, probably.

Since we already established that the rain is mostly coming from the west (and slightly north) and there's a semi-arid desert right next to the marsh, this means there's likely another mountain range right in between those. It's interesting to note that the desert it completely surroundedd by low elevation and very wet biomes, except for the east which is somewhat arid.

It's impossible to predict exactly how the rivers would flow, but it's safe to assume that the mountain range that is inevitably in between the Desert and the Marsh would produce several rivers, posibly very wide (think amazon) flowing east, south, southeast or any combination of them.
Then there's the rainforest surrounded by 3 low elevation biomes, while it's hard to say for sure, the rainforest is likely to have a higher elevation than the surrounding biomes, so rivers could flow from the jungle in any direction through the other 3 biomes towards the ocean.
Basically, while it's hard to say which biomes would connect to which exactly, expect rivers basically all the way from the rainforest to the mountains in kingdom 2 (Although it's unlikely there would be a single river flowing all the way north-to-south)

Oh and then there's a somewhat random grasslands to the west, where not a lot of rain should be, considering it's surrounded by arid biomes and mountains, so there's probably at least 1 river flowing from the montane through the grasslands, and considering the shape, probably a second river from the Desert mountain range through the grasslands.

Damn that's a shitload of rivers.

.

The "no single controlpoint" is the most valid of your points, but makes it also hard for the landlocked biomes to travel over sea, which would unstrain much more. Considering, that travel &trade will most likely mainly be based on seaways..

And that's exactly why map P deserves a second look in round 2, because it's very likely it has massive rivers all the way from the ocean to deep inland, which makes trading even easier, despite being landlocked.
All of the mayor tradeports in the world are not big because they border the ocean, but because they border a major river as well as the ocean. Just bordering ocean is not enough, you have to be able to move that trade inwards, and map P shows signs that it may enable that.

I think map P deserves a spot in round 2, you can always trash it if it doesn't look good in round 2.

You should have written this thread instead mate. :)

Reading about the drama and trickery by Arkadia.

I just like to state that if you want a fair map that can`t be blocked by one kingdom then vote P!

Us common folks have to band together now so the powerful few don`t come out victories and we the common folks will be dirt on there shoes for ever.

Vote P now or spend Elyrian days gated off from half the map.!