COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
What I dreamed about COE

I do not want to add any negativity to the community I just have a few thoughts I want to get off my chest. I think we all know where we are individually and as a community, and we all know how we got here. I don't want to beat that horse's corpse into a bloody smear. Having said that, there are still a few things I would like to express.

COE is supposed to be the world everyone wanted to live in. A place anyone could pursue what they wanted. A genuinely living world everyone could participate in and contribute to in ways that were meaningful. That is what it is supposed to become if and God willing when it becomes a reality. Of course there's a lot more to the original vision, but that's not a bad summary.

I am not going to peddle any trite garbage about how this is a scam or the devs haven't given us anything real, or anything like that. I really don't care for those wagons, and I'm not going to hop on them. Further, whatever they choose to show us or not show us. Shinies, gameplay, etc, all of that stuff good or bad frequent or infrequent really doesn't mean anything to me. If I wasn't seeing anything except descriptions of what the finished product will be like that would be enough for me right up until launch. It's because of those descriptions of what the finished product is supposed to become that I fell in love with COE in the first place. The Dev Diaries about what the game was going to actually be like. Those are what made me want to believe in COE.

Frankly I don't watch the test videos they put out. I barely glance at the shinies. I stopped reading the lore write ups a long time ago, broadly speaking I haven't been impressed with them. They haven't all been bad, but at one point when I was called out for not being constructive in my criticism I offered some constructive feedback on the quality of the writing and as far as I can figure I was ignored. Whatever, I'm getting off topic, I haven't dropped $250+ or I don't know how much money to read a series of novellas. If the lore write ups are less than stellar I really don't care in the long run. It makes no difference.

What makes a difference to me is the sense I have been developing over the course of the last few months that COE isn't any longer the game that I signed up for. Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's just the negative spirit of the times for this community. Maybe this post is just a byproduct of the general malaise this community has slumped into. Even so, I still can't help but feel that somewhere along the way the original vision has been swallowed up, by what I couldn't tell you.

Even right now it is difficult to put to words exactly what I feel the problem is, but when I think about COE these days I am just not that into it. I don't invite people to check the game out anymore. I check the forums out of habit more than any actual interest in anything anyone might be saying.

When I backed COE on kickstarter I imagined a semi-rouge-like MMO. Open world PvP with an emphasis on realism, dare I say it? nearly hardcore in survival and death mechanics. Realistic construction and destruction. Player built and player run nations and cities. Probably my favorite, fully simulated ancient/medieval warfare on an unmatched scale with every conceivable facet that could entail from the manufacture and transportation of equipment and food to small unit tactics to grand strategy and politics. I saw in my dream stricken mind a virtual fantasy world I had always wanted to be a part of.

Some time ago I made a post specifically about the warfare mechanics and how disappointed and appalled I was with what the devs were considering for them at the time. I don't know if things have changed, but their proposals for handling warfare have been truly appalling throughout development. My posts had a mixed reception for both good and bad reasons, partly legitimate criticism of my ideas partly people simply not understanding my meaning. I'm not going to resurrect those arguments as I am sure that my solutions may ultimately have also been unworkable on one pretext or another. However, I feel that my original problem with those mechanics specifically, as far as I was aware of them at the time, is a flagship, for me at least, for all the disillusionment I have come to feel towards COE.

Somewhere along the way the mystique and charm has been lost. It doesn't look like a semi-rouge-like fantasy world simulation. It looks more and more like an ordinary MMO. Maybe better or improved or superior in one way or another, but ultimately not what was promised, whether the promise was consciously made or not. There's nothing wrong with making a better MMO. I just didn't sign up for one is all. I don't play MMO's. I don't want to play an MMO. I wanted to play COE.

I do not see that survival mechanics will be as severe as they once were meant to be.

I do not see that travel will be as difficult as it once was meant to be.

I do not see that warfare will be as dangerous or as impactful or potentially world history altering as it well and truly should be.

Let's take a specific example. When the tribes were first introduced I was under the impression that these tribes lived in their biomes in a relatively homogeneous condition. The devs specifically stated that there would be few to no other members of foreign tribes outside their native biomes at launch. The whole idea behind the tribes was that they had all been separated from each other for a greatly extended period of time and had thereby genetically diverged to an exaggerated degree. All of this information is in the Q&A videos on the tribes.

Then, when D&SS rolled around imagine my shock when every single biome in every kingdom on every server is in actuality quite mixed up. I am forced to ask what was the point of building these wildly divergent tribes in the first place if the devs were going to sow the seeds for their dissolution before the game even starts. I can't even imagine a single one of the starting tribes surviving in an even semi pure form to the end of the ten year story arc. Wasn't that a decision that we, the players, should have been able to make for ourselves? More to the point! That isn't what the promised us!

Actually, whether it was a decision we should make for ourselves. Whether the tribes all being apparently irrevocably mixed together right from the beginning is good or bad. Both of those are beside the point! It wasn't what we were promised. The map isn't what we were promised. It isn't what the kings were promised. They're even changing the map again for Settlers after they made it stylized and gave it the fantasy motif for D&SS they are changing it back.

Giving a litany of all the things that have been boldly declared with finality and then subsequently reversed is really beyond the limits of my patience. I am sure someone is keeping better track than I am of all the things the devs said would "never be in the game" that are now in the game or any number of other things that the devs have said that just weren't true or they changed later when they said they would definitely never change that thing in particular.

I could say something about trust or whatever, but that's really all been said before hasn't it? Look, bottom line is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. When the devs say something they need to stick to it. If they think they might not then they need to say that too, but more than anything when they decide to do things a particular way, like with the map for instance, then that's the way it needs to be done.

After you've committed to it and you're doing it and you've said you're going to do it and you've done it then just do it and keep it. It is what it is. Don't change it because this other way is more optimal for x, y, and z reasons. There are always reasons why some other way of doing it or whatever is more optimal or more better for this or that reason than whatever it is you're doing now. The potential improvements that could be made to any given system are literally infinite, literally. If you allow yourself to be swayed by every gust of wind that suggests a faster or better pathway you're just going to go back and forth forever. Once you've picked something good stick to it. Maybe some other way of doing it would be better, maybe not, it doesn't matter. You can't expect a perfect solution. A good plan now is better than a perfect plan in ten weeks, because guess what, there will be a more perfect plan suggested at that time which will take another ten weeks. It never ends.

Maybe that's a complete misdiagnosis. Maybe I'm totally off base here. Maybe the idea that there's something fundamentally wrong with development is just my imagination, but I think I can safely say that there is a prevalent perception, justified or not, that something is wrong. A strong and prevalent sentiment that something has got to be done differently going forward.

I don't know, anyone who wants to comment say whatever you like, or tell me that I'm an idiot or whatever. In a way I was really writing this for myself more than anyone, you know, just to put my thoughts and feelings in a more tangible form. If you find yourself feeling the same way maybe this will be edifying to you.


3/2/2020 12:51:56 AM #1

I came, I saw, I found an article that might convey your thoughts. Especially the second half.

“A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week” — George Patton


3/2/2020 12:55:17 AM #2

Posted By Idioticmaddog at 7:51 PM - Sun Mar 01 2020

I came, I saw, I found an article that might convey your thoughts. Especially the second half.

“A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week” — George Patton

Problem is you have to have a good plan first lol


3/2/2020 1:18:44 AM #3

The thing about a game this early in development is it is very nebulous.

This means whoever looks at CoE at this point is going to see whatever features they like and the game is going to be perfect for whatever reasons. Then everyone who is vested believes the Devs should listen to whatever design idea they have and ends up taking it personally when it doesn’t happen.

Then when for lack of money, time design abilities they drop certain features or they don’t end up being exactly what folks want the game sucks...

Bottom line other than a bundle of ideas and hopes CoE doesn’t really exist right now. There is no point in hoping for or getting upset over any particular anything.

3/2/2020 5:18:38 AM #4

@Barleyman,

I believe that you've put too much wishfulness into your expectations right from the start. For example, a pure survival game hasn't been in the works since the notion of a wandering trader was floated. Wandering traders rely on highly-survivable travel, and highly risky travel would require them to be more warrior and survivalist than trader.

For another example, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by rogue-like. (I'm using the spelling of the word that seems most appropriate, because rouge means red). There seems to be plenty of opportunity in the mechanics still for roguery. Perhaps what is relevant is that roguery won't automatically be the centerpoint of most players' experiences, because it needs to happen in a strong context of economics and politics that are understandably critical to making an emergent game. Establishing the political context happens to be the focus of the current efforts that prospective players know about, but that focus will shift to other topics eventually.


3/2/2020 5:29:43 PM #5

rogue-like is a genre of game, named after the game Rogue. procedural generated dungeon crawler with permadeath.


3/2/2020 5:37:19 PM #6

Posted By Poldano at 12:18 AM - Mon Mar 02 2020

@Barleyman,

I believe that you've put too much wishfulness into your expectations right from the start. For example, a pure survival game hasn't been in the works since the notion of a wandering trader was floated. Wandering traders rely on highly-survivable travel, and highly risky travel would require them to be more warrior and survivalist than trader.

For another example, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by rogue-like. (I'm using the spelling of the word that seems most appropriate, because rouge means red). There seems to be plenty of opportunity in the mechanics still for roguery. Perhaps what is relevant is that roguery won't automatically be the centerpoint of most players' experiences, because it needs to happen in a strong context of economics and politics that are understandably critical to making an emergent game. Establishing the political context happens to be the focus of the current efforts that prospective players know about, but that focus will shift to other topics eventually.

My guess is the OPs is reference to rogue-like means he wants very serious consequences for failure.

In early rogue games a player lost everything when they died and had to start over from scratch, from his description it seems he was hoping for (and believes he was promised) similar in COE.

I haven't read enough of the early blogs to comment on whether SBS has softened COE's design significantly or not.

From what I do know the proposed gameplay is still much more "hardcore" than most other MMOs in developement, just not a wide open experience like early UO or Darkfall Online were.


You must all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry. JAMES 1:19 NLT

3/3/2020 3:41:58 AM #7

Thanks for the clarifying posts, Sylvae and Kyleran.

Based upon those clarifications, I never got the impression that the game would be as hardcore as Rogue has been described.


3/3/2020 4:59:07 AM #8

tbh i think OP is getting that idea because Snipehunter used the word "rogue-like" when describing certain elements of either his past work or current work, on certain elements of dungeons in CoE (procedural generated dungeons + permadeath (kiinda) equals rougue-like, or some such piecemeal quotes taken out of context. heh.


3/3/2020 11:40:27 PM #9

It isn't just you Barley...

Nobody actually knows what this game is anymore...

It would seem that that would be the purpose of the annual State of Elyria announcement.

That was supposed to be sometime in the beginning of 2020?

It's March now.

And nobody from SBS is talking...

Why?

They aren't saying that either...

So what is left for us to do but bide the time till they decide to do anything else?

It's not too surprising to me that people are now starting to just walk away.

Ghosting your community...no matter how upset they might be...isn't a good business strategy in my opinion.

Especially if you later want to hit them up for money.


We Are The Many... We Are The One... We Are THE WAERD !!!

3/4/2020 2:04:14 AM #10

I don't know about ye olde IRC chatlogs, but I've been following CoE since 2016 and I've never thought of it as having rogue-like elements.

Sure, if you die, you can choose to spawn in a random NPC like a new "seed", and of course a lot of the world will be procedurally generated at least initially, but that's about where the comparison ends.

One of the major concepts that's been pushed from the start is how you can start your own dynasty and have some of your progress carry over into your subsequent characters. That has always been a "thing" pushed since Kickstarter. You can inherit the possessions and (some) skills of the previous life, but there are also unique benefits to the "random seed" method of spawning into an NPC, so it's not like they've taken that part away.

The world persists when you log out and your impact on the world can be permanent. My understanding of most rogue-likes is that each playthrough is its own instance and if you screw up badly with your build on one run you can die and start over. In CoE, you can die, but the fields you razed will still be ashes when you spawn into a new body and the farmers still need to find out how they'll grow enough crops.

While I agree that they've changed their vision several times during development, and I've been a bit wary of some changes myself (their current vision of the EP store being my major gripe) I'm going to wait until we've got our hands on something playable before I can judge it for certain. But imo it's inaccurate to say "it used to be semi rogue-like but now it's not" because it was never advertised as rogue-like (except maybe an offhanded comment from a developer taken out of context?)


3/4/2020 2:44:31 PM #11

Posted By Scuttle at 8:04 PM - Tue Mar 03 2020

>.... But imo it's inaccurate to say "it used to be semi rogue-like but now it's not" because it was never advertised as rogue-like (except maybe an offhanded comment from a developer taken out of context?)

Therein lies my biggest gripe about discord at this stage of a games development.

When you have devs especially the studio head just pop by in discord and start laying out his ideas for the game people naturally take it as OMG that feature is totally going to be in!!!! And run off and start posting on mmorpg or other game sites forcing the very same dev to either let the miscommunication proliferate or be seen to walk back his earlier comments.

Sure sbs said everything on discord is unofficial and all that but 1) it’s very naive to believe it wouldn’t be quoted when the head of the studio says something and 2) when they get lazy and make official announcements on discord before their “official platform” aka the forums naturally the unofficial disclaimer on discord will be disregarded.

Right now we know nothing more than the names and general outline of the tribes, a rough outline of how they envision the soul system to work and that’s about it. Everything else is nebulous and with random devs making random comments it’s easy to see how certain untruths can be spread around and taken as hard coded gospel.

Just my two cents. :-)

3/5/2020 7:47:22 AM #12

@ Barleyman,

Wish I could reply earlier, but I am too busy these days.

I gotta admit, I am pretty surprised to hear this from you, given you have contributed to the “Ashland Tactical Challenges” previously. You always come across as someone very passionate about CoE. Your worries goes much deeper than the normal complains we see, and I appreciate it that you bring it up.

Instead of focusing on the term “rogue-like”, let's move on to the more concrete points:

1) Hardcore survival & death mechanics
2) Realistic construction & destruction
3) Player built/run nations & cities
4) Ancient warfare with unmatched scale/realism

I would like to begin by saying that I am a huge fan of warfare myself. I have played more strategy games than MMO. Since OP is that passionate about warfare, I think it is better to approach the above 4 features by examining how the #1, 2) and 3) impact 4). I am hoping OP is willing to appraoch the above features from various angles and drill deeper to everyone's thought on the issue. (Hopefully, not in the manner we saw from the warfare post mentioned in the OP :P)

I would agree Survival for individuals is less harsh than I originally envisioned. After learning that crafters would need to travel all over the worlds to learn various techniques / skills, my expectation is lowered. I would now only expect harsh survival condition in areas far from the roads. Yet, I would withhold judgement on its impact on army movement. That's because we were told it would take master-level survival skills to support group of people surviving in the wild. I am expecting size of travelers/goods will increase survival difficulties expotentially.

For 2), my expectation is consistent with what I learn from the kickstarter back then. No construction will poof into existence. Materials will have to be carried over to the location of construction. Cost of destruction will be comparable to cost of construction etc. Granted that the architecture tool was never released, we do not have any info on how materials / physics impact a building. Not much big changes.

For 3), didn't see any changes too.

For 4), realistic warfare need to always be considered together with balancing. For scale, it is always a matter of tech/networking. There is also implementaion challenges for tactical formations, e.g. how should the effectiveness of a shield wall be changed if a player in the formation suddenl;y D/C etc. On the other side of the equation, there are logistic consideration for warfare which were overlooked in most games. Yet, in CoE, with finite resources, limited inventories space, survival challenges, and the sheer size of the world, I still see this side of warfare being portrayed realistically. Not at all close to generic MMOs.

Regarding your statement of “warfare will be as dangerous or as impactful or potentially world history altering as it well and truly should be”, would you mind elaborating more? I came to CoE expecting combat will play a much smaller role than in other MMOs. Economics, productions, technologies, politics will have much stronger impact on the world. I have yet to see any other MMOs embrace these aspects of the world. To me, the outcome of warfare is the accumulation of all those factors (and many others that I omitted). And it is just one of the ways to express the impact. There would/should also be ways other than warfare. I am curious what set your expectation of how impactful warfare should be vs will be, both from SBS or other sources.

I do not have time to reply to the rest of the post. All I can say, is that I would argue the dev team is too small to develop at the expected speed. Some of the community memebrs have their expectation raised due to the original “Expected release date”. SBS is also learning on the way how big of a challenge they have set themselves up for. Hopes the next “State of Elyria” will give us a more realistic outlook at the larger picture.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

3/7/2020 11:49:45 PM #13

Can we, pretty please, stop referring to a game that's been in "full speed development" (SBS words, not mine) for the last 4 years as "early stages"? This joke stopped being funny about 2 years back.

As far as I remember, and I was here before KS, the harshness and possibility of permadeath were some of the cornerstone parts of COE. Want to take a risky trip and explore the unexplored? You are taking a serious risk, and if you screw up, you will lose a substantial amount of your spark, possibly even all of it (guaranteed to permadeath if killed at sea).

The travel was also supposed to be very troubling, which is very much a cornerstone for... everything else in CoE. Otherwise, if I can get around fast, I am not restricted to local markets. Centralization goes up, impact of lesser makers/towns goes out of the window. And yet it was supposed to be needed, as that's the only way to get the precious resources/services not available locally.

See how this ties all together with the harshness of death? Yep, travel takes time and is risky, but yields profit. Same deal with exploration. But so far everything points towards CoE dropping more and more of that risk in exchange to be more streamlined and like every single MMO out there.

I don't want every single MMO out there, I didn't play one in... by god, 8 years, and I don't miss it. I did want to play CoE, as it was going back to the old school roots, but now enabled by modern tech. And that... That just I don't think will happen.


Looking to join some fun community on the EU server ;). Friend code: C2D13A