I agree with just about everything said in this post.

I haven't been the biggest fan of most of the "big reveals" surrounding gear - but most of it is personal preference.

The rest surrounds the fact that the gear doesn't seem practical, or well-designed enough to actually accomplish the purpose described.

I can get over the "personal taste" part. But gear that just "doesn't make sense" from a design standpoint does indeed go against the argument of "we are shooting for verisimilitude."

If that is indeed the intent, then I think there needs to be a "verisimilitude pass" on a lot of the concept/showcased stuff released.

UNLESS...

The gear we are shown is intentionally "poorly designed" (not from an artistic standpoint, from a practicality one) so that things can be improved on throughout the course of the game.

To me it's not that these weapons are real or not. Fantasy or not. It's just minor asthetics prefrences and I love both realism and fantasy equally. For feedback's sake I just want the weapons to do what they are meant to do in their most basic sense.

My main gripe with everything I see is that all this stuff is supposed to be the lowest level of technology all these tribes are supposed to start with. Their looks suggest this by using wood, obsidian, stone, bone, ect. You can trade all their stuff up to better mats to make them appear more functional and that is ok to me.

What is not ok is the concepts themselves have a higher tech undertone to them. Not in the look itself but the apparent skill level needed to operate the weapons. The double bladed pole staff itself seems to require a high degree of martial arts mastery we just arent supposed to have starting out at launch in terms of basic skill sets. With a low level of skill those items would be more deadly to yourself then your enemy with little or no skill to use it in the first place.

OR the other huge gripe I have with all this stuff is that they are trying to do way too much with each item. Every weapon seems to do 5 different things. Like the Janoa double bladed staff with a buckler. Or the Brudvir great axe being a maul, hammer, axe, spear, and survival tool.

We were supposed to have to make the hard choices which would lead to our survival or deaths based on how we plannned for what we do with limited inventory to hold armor, weapons, supplies, ect. All the weapons and armor I see seem to do everything but make curly fries.

I would be ok with this if we researched this type of thing over time, but as the most basic raw concepts of weapons and armor we will start with being able to do everything and have slashing, crushing, and piercing damage combined with harvesting is just attempting to do way too much for a supposed low tech launch levels.

Or that these items in terms of research have everything already and that they wont really evolve other then swapping out mats. It seems to run against being able to make the choice to customize these items how you want when they already do everything you need.

It makes me question how these concepts could even be made better and evolve as our tech increases. Or if we do we just throw them away as new weapons come out.

My concern is that there are not enough basic weapons to start with when all these items are fairly exotic to begin with. People comment there are all sorts of weapons to choose from. But if each weapon does everything you don't actually need a whole lot of weapons at all since you can already do it in 1 weapon.

Or that all these cultures are equal but the dispersal of apparent technology between the tribes does not really appear balanced. Some tribes appear to be in the stone age with other starting in the bronze age or higher. And somehow its supposed to be equal so that these tribes can compete.

Biomes are important yes. traits are important yes. But those benefeits cant be so overwhelming. A brudvir's strength can't be so overpowering that all other tribes can't use their weapons if what they make cant be traded because they are so strong or thier all in one tool can kill anything in 1 hit with armor because its so heavy and they are so strong.

All those things and more make me dislike the concepts presented. They look decent, they are certainly plausable, They look deadly. But they are too exotic, do too much, are too advanced, or run against the write ups on the tribes they represent for the level of technology and research we are supposed to have at launch.

I think we must forget words as practical and optimal when dealing with people. Just look at our world, cars, clothes or weapons. Sometimes people just want what they wamt as a social marker or just for show.

Example the Brudvir axe, maybe people think it is to heavy, but people frown at people who think it is to heavy so they usa a big axe. And there maybe are tons of Brudvir also having a real axe for fighting and not just the big one to show of thier strength. When it comes to people we just dont know ;)

Posted By Daarco at 11:29 AM - Wed Jul 11 2018

Just look at our world, cars, clothes or weapons. Sometimes people just want what they wamt as a social marker or just for show.

Probably one of the biggest point I can make with anything related to weapons and armor as somebody who fought modern line fencers, SCA, and HEMA folks; people fought to not get killed, not to get a point.

Being suboptimal on the basic geometry of a weapon will lead to the users death. This isn't a stylistic or a "preference" kinda thing. The person who gets to brag is the person who gets to walk home. Only after you've got a weapon that works do you go in and add the flare, like rondel's on the side of one's helmet or different complex hilts once you know your hand is protected.

To use your example, would you drive a car with square tires or round wheels? Ok, what about the engine running off of steam or gasoline? Once you got the "functional" pieces down, then go nuts on aesthetics or even optimization. Develop tech that makes that original equipment even more efficient in what it already does. But again, that doesn't happen until you got a barebone foundation of that tool that just does it's job.

Without knowing the actual requirements of strength used to wield it or the actual weight of the weapon playing an important role with the weight of the armor added all our perspectives are sujective when it comes to the strength of the brudvir.

Thre is a lot of metal in that axe. It looks to be nearly an inch or more wide in spots and no matter if people think it looks heavy or not it still has unknown values which make it heavy with unknown material weight and encumberance slowing you down with armor or having stamina constraints.

Weight in general should have a tremendous tradeoff of speed for damage and stamina useage along with the encumberance being a tradeoff for agility. Strength might overcome that speed loss slightly but they will have to sacrifice armor protection to use it properly and at adaquate speeds which will open them up to dying for the oppertunity to one shot someone. It just does not sound like a reliable way to losing spirit.

And the Brudvir may be super hulks but they still need to adhere to the same plane of stat pools everyone else uses. Not to mention if everything they use weighs too much they wont be able to trade with anyone who isnt a super hulk.

The actual size of the weapon is not the issue the weight is along with it being a 5 in one wonder weapon. If it does have a ton of metal in it you can assume that every strike can potentiall cause devistating slashing and crushing damage sufficient enough to cut through armor and follow with substancial crushing damage which would be an instant kill to a head strike.

Or how this hulk weapon would instantly bypass or critically damage any defensive armor or shields as well due to the weight involved with any armor type under 3 layers. Or even the piercing impliment would potentially be stronger by the weight behind it.

These all seem like aesthetic issues, sure the scales don't over lap visually but it doesn't mean SBS can't decide it protects all the same. I think there needs to be a balance between the typical RPG bikini armor defending you from a sword swing, and the ultra realistic visually represent every scale being overlapped and the axe head perfectly sharpened to a fine edge.

While I agree things could def look more realistic we are just playing a game and if we expect tiny details on everything to be perfect it's gonna get pretty annoying, imo.

I guess just to elaborate on my point, I don't think people are going to be upset when they load up a game and the axe head is a little thick. Some, sure, most people though aren't that picky.

Posted By CuteLilPuppyDog at 1:17 PM - Wed Jul 11 2018

These all seem like aesthetic issues, sure the scales don't over lap visually but it doesn't mean SBS can't decide it protects all the same. I think there needs to be a balance between the typical RPG bikini armor defending you from a sword swing, and the ultra realistic visually represent every scale being overlapped and the axe head perfectly sharpened to a fine edge.

While I agree things could def look more realistic we are just playing a game and if we expect tiny details on everything to be perfect it's gonna get pretty annoying, imo.

I guess just to elaborate on my point, I don't think people are going to be upset when they load up a game and the axe head is a little thick. Some, sure, most people though aren't that picky.

Personally, I agree. Verisimilitude is just a fancy description for willing suspension of disbelief. How far your willing to suspend your disbelief is based on how much knowledge you have about the subject. I can understand how those with a lot of knowledge about armor and weapons would have a narrow range of suspension, but to those of us that barely know the difference between a halberd and a spear, it falls well within our tolerance.

This is NOT to say that the complaints are invalid, just that they probably aren't representative of the average players verisimilitude tolerance (if you will). Something like weight counter balance or extra materials for a spike, probably wouldn't cross their mind. (It certainly didn't for me)

That being said, this is good feedback for this element of design. As long as the significance isn't embellished to the point of being a deal-breaker, I think such attention to detail is great.

Still these weapons no matter if they are real or fantasy need to conform to the physics and weight of Elyria and how it pertains to performance between strength, dexterity, agility, and stamina of that system which interacts differently between the tribes.

If this axe has a lot of metal in it, it then has a weight equal to the metal and materials used which like most systems will fall into a realistic system no matter what it looks like or if it is fantasy or realistic. Plausability makes it more palletable for both camps but the fact remains their is an underlying physics system in the game that these factors will rely upon.

Using the Brudvir as an example again we will start the game with pureblood strong Brudvir. The instant the game starts people will start to hybridize the tribe with all other tribes where their stats will eventually totally mix together into a common genepool all tribe share as genetics and appearances find a balance at some point.

So even if they can wield this weapon now with their brute strength. At some point it will be rare to fine a "pure" Brudvir with the strength to wield a heavy axe like the concept.

I like the look of the axe though I find a couple of quirks with it and how much it tries to do. There are also many factors people aren't considering beyond the look which affects or throws off the the rest of the game. It's not about the astherics as much as everything else about them as starter concepts.

Thanks for the topic! I'm glad to see that these things are being brought up and given further thought. :)

I agree that physics, and abiding by its laws, should be a thing for the game. I don't see the axe breaking any laws of physics. Will the axe be heavy? Probably, almost definitely. Will someone other than a full-blooded adult Brudvir be able to wield one? Probably, almost definitely. While the Brudvir are inherently strong, there are other strong tribes and outliers within less strong tribes that are strong enough. The Brudvir axe probably won't be their weapon/tool of choice, but that's a decision up to each player.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, metal will likely be a limited commodity (at first) to the Brudvir. To me, it makes sense that they would make tools that serve multiple purposes. If they can make a bludgeoning and slashing weapons whilst also using it as a survival implement, I feel that this is what they would do. The wooden shaft might be too thin to some, but we also know that the Brudvir pride themselves on their wood crafting. Perhaps it is a point of pride to find wood with the tightest, straightest grained pieces for their axe handles. They orient the grain in the optimal orientation to avoid breakage. Perhaps they also make them as thin as they can as a sort of game with other Brudvir. Who can make the thinnest, strongest handle? I don't know. And that's the point... No one knows yet.

And that is what gets to me about the "veracity crowd" - no one knows yet. On one hand, I appreciate and commend the emotional investment into the game and wanting to make it the best game ever. Some of the suggestions are good, and will likely be taken under advisement by the staff. But there comes a time when we have to weigh Playability Over Perfection. We all want to see the game released. As with any game, there will be balance issues that need to be addressed as SbS gets more data after release. How about we just enjoy the ride and appreciate the progress being made and the look under the hood that is being shared with us week after week?

A point I've made over many comments has been: If you don't like something, don't use it! If it's too heavy for your To'Resk Kypiq hybrid to handle, then don't commission one to be made! But don't limit the choices of other people just because you don't care for a thing. Just because we don't understand a thing doesn't mean it doesn't have a purpose.

For all I know a Kypiq can reliably block the Brudvir great axe with a toothpick with no detriment to the Kypiq. It just all depends on how combat is handled in general.

I may not have a choice when it comes to weapons if it is done poorly and there are supreme weapons that outshadow others and be forced to use them if they are just that overpowered to compete in combat.

Especially so if Brudvir only rely on a strength requirement to equip a weapon and cann swing it like its lighter than air to keep Brudvir from getting shanked by agile Kypiqs with toothpicks that can block great axes and pierce 3 layers of armor.

Or you could look at all this and say "Cool, I wonder how this will work in game" . Instead of complaining about a fantasy world where things aren't what they are here on Earth.

We did. Read.

Luminios literally typed out:

We sat together, and talked about what parts of our critique fall into the first category, with us arguing veracity, and what we feel is actually something that will also impact verisimilitude.

Use all the big words you want, Elyria is a fantasy world so not everything will make sense. if you don't like the gear then make your own. its called research and crafting.

I would really appreciate everyone sticking to the topic of the thread. If you want to argue about the merit of what we are doing, I think you should rather do so on Teland's thread ...

I'll just reiterate the topic of this thread, and the question posed in the original post:

The topic of this thread are the problems we see with the weapons and armor shown to us so far. The question was whether you think we missed something. Ofcourse you could also tell us where you disagree with our assessment, though I would ask you to not treat the fantasy element of the game as a knockout argument, as that is rather pointless.

I guess I should have made that more clear, seeing as so far the comments almost exclusively would have better been posted on the aforementioned thread.

I agree with the armor assessments, overlap is key to any type of scale, as well as needing the gaps in the leather armor to allow freedom of movement. The polearm, I have to say seems much like a glaive-guisarme or oriental glaive with a touch of a man-catcher added. To me it seems a weapon that came form something similar to a scythe, plowshares in to swords so to speak. The Brudvir axe, looks a lot like a wood splitting axe, fancied up into a weapon, maybe not extremely practical per se but seems to fit the tools-weapons feel. Many seem to have that kind of aesthetic. To me explains why they are not the best designs, it is the first steps with taking common tools and making them into weapons of war? Lore will help fill that gap in.

That being said, the shield handle is impractical in my opinion as well, unless they have wrists as strong as steel any off center hit is going to break said wrist, aside from a buckler, which was meant for deflection not stopping, shields tended to strap to the entire forearm.